Wrong place at wrong time

[texanjoker]

Had you used deadly force it would have been ugly and could have cost you your freedom. Sure they "may" have been gang members but is fighting a deadly force issue when your buddy is running his mouth off escalating the situation? I am glad you didn't have to find out. Depending on the grand jury it could be cleared or you could have been charged. He owes you a good bottle or dinner. Be thankful it ended the way it did.

Yes, fighting is a deadly force situation. Google one punch kill. The law allows you to present your weapon whenever force is justified and threaten deadly force if the attackers escalate. That's exactly what he did. And it worked.

If you don't think that fighting is a deadly force situation, you need to do some reading. As I said, google one punch kill.

Sorry but I have to disagree.

Not to be confrontational but is this from a LEO or lawyer standpoint? I have read about several and they were no bill and no arrest.

So, if I had a guy punch me in the face, out of the blue, and I pulled my firearm and he continued to come after me, you would arrest me?

No worries. LEO point of view, which is going to be different as I said in my original post. Just wanted to share a different point of view as the point of this thread should be to think what one would do. This wasn't just a person being punched out of the blue. They had an altercation in the bar, went out side and his intoxicated buddy was also being verbal so it wasn't one sided. Sure there can be some no billed, ect but that is probably after going to jail, paying bond, paying legal fees, ect.

re a different post. For me colors meant possible gang involvement, but then a lot wear colors in certain hoods and are not part of any gang. Just wearing the local color.

My understanding from the OP was the friend only smarted off in the bar, was too scared to say anything once they left the bar. I think we all can safely assume that the other guys were intent on inflicting physical damage.
So, once they retreated from the bar and were attempting to leave wouldn't the following apply?
(4) if the actor provoked the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force, unless:
(A) the actor abandons the encounter, or clearly communicates to the other his intent to do so reasonably believing he cannot safely abandon the encounter; and
(B) the other nevertheless continues or attempts to use unlawful force against the actor

I believe, based on the OPs account, that both A and B apply. If so, the original altercation doesn't prohibit the OP from defending himself.

You are missing a sentence in his original post:

We get to my car and I open it and he opens his door but he starts letting his ego get involved and smart talks back at the 4 men as they approached.

In my experience of responding to lots of bar fights and bar stabbings, very rarely is it one side. It usually escalates just like this incident did and once you collect all the evidence and witness statements this is how it began. I also wonder if the OP had any alcohol in his system. I mentioned that earlier as well as you can have a beer and be sober and serve as the DD. However it could be a negative factor if you use deadly force.

This was a good thread to get people to think. Everybody will make their own decision.

[Charles L. Cotton]

In the deadly force segment of my CHL classes, and in my Texas Self-Defense & Deadly Force Laws Seminar, I give an example using deadly force under TPC §9.31(b)(4). I call it the "Bad Bad Leroy Brown" example. While this example deals with using deadly force after you have provoked someone, then disengaged, it's set in a pool hall. When finished, I point out that the §9.31(b)(4)(A) defense is on the books, but good luck convincing anyone that it applies. This is largely because of the setting although one's provocative conduct is also a major factor.

Corrected reference...

Thanks, I was talking about "Bad bad Leroy Brown" but typing McDermott.

Chas.

[jmra]

Had you used deadly force it would have been ugly and could have cost you your freedom. Sure they "may" have been gang members but is fighting a deadly force issue when your buddy is running his mouth off escalating the situation? I am glad you didn't have to find out. Depending on the grand jury it could be cleared or you could have been charged. He owes you a good bottle or dinner. Be thankful it ended the way it did.

Yes, fighting is a deadly force situation. Google one punch kill. The law allows you to present your weapon whenever force is justified and threaten deadly force if the attackers escalate. That's exactly what he did. And it worked.

If you don't think that fighting is a deadly force situation, you need to do some reading. As I said, google one punch kill.

Sorry but I have to disagree.

Not to be confrontational but is this from a LEO or lawyer standpoint? I have read about several and they were no bill and no arrest.

So, if I had a guy punch me in the face, out of the blue, and I pulled my firearm and he continued to come after me, you would arrest me?

No worries. LEO point of view, which is going to be different as I said in my original post. Just wanted to share a different point of view as the point of this thread should be to think what one would do. This wasn't just a person being punched out of the blue. They had an altercation in the bar, went out side and his intoxicated buddy was also being verbal so it wasn't one sided. Sure there can be some no billed, ect but that is probably after going to jail, paying bond, paying legal fees, ect.

re a different post. For me colors meant possible gang involvement, but then a lot wear colors in certain hoods and are not part of any gang. Just wearing the local color.

My understanding from the OP was the friend only smarted off in the bar, was too scared to say anything once they left the bar. I think we all can safely assume that the other guys were intent on inflicting physical damage.
So, once they retreated from the bar and were attempting to leave wouldn't the following apply?
(4) if the actor provoked the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force, unless:
(A) the actor abandons the encounter, or clearly communicates to the other his intent to do so reasonably believing he cannot safely abandon the encounter; and
(B) the other nevertheless continues or attempts to use unlawful force against the actor

I believe, based on the OPs account, that both A and B apply. If so, the original altercation doesn't prohibit the OP from defending himself.

You are missing a sentence in his original post:

We get to my car and I open it and he opens his door but he starts letting his ego get involved and smart talks back at the 4 men as they approached.

In my experience of responding to lots of bar fights and bar stabbings, very rarely is it one side. It usually escalates just like this incident did and once you collect all the evidence and witness statements this is how it began. I also wonder if the OP had any alcohol in his system. I mentioned that earlier as well as you can have a beer and be sober and serve as the DD. However it could be a negative factor if you use deadly force.

This was a good thread to get people to think. Everybody will make their own decision.

I saw that earlier but then later (IIRC) he qualifies that his friend only engaged the others verbally in the bar. Said he was too scared to say anything as they were leaving.
I'm sure as an officer you would view this as an inconsistency in the story which in an investigation would bring the account of what happened into question.
No offense intended toward the OP.

[RoyGBiv]

Thanks, I was talking about "Bad bad Leroy Brown" but typing McDermott.

Chas.

As long as you're not hearing voices, it's all good.

And thanks for the legal lesson(s)... I really do need to take your class next time you're near DFW.

[jmra]

Thanks, I was talking about "Bad bad Leroy Brown" but typing McDermott.

Chas.

As long as you're not hearing voices, it's all good.

And thanks for the legal lesson(s)... I really do need to take your class next time you're near DFW.

I also would like to attend your class if you do one near DFW.

[talltex]

When the OP mentioned colors, I just assumed bikers.

1) There is no such thing as getting in a fight with A MC club member. Any confrontation will be with ALL of them.

4) The beat down hurts and you may even carry permaniate physical reminders. But it will be over.

5) For the most part, non-club members are beneath their notice. Unless you do something stupid, they'll pretty much leave you alone.

Just don't get in a fight with one.

I made the same assumption because many of the "outlaw" clubs have girls working for them in those clubs and hang out there. Like you, I'm not and never was a member of one, but have seen the Bandido's in action back in the 70's

re: 1) Absolutlely...it's "all for one and one for all "

re:2) if you're lucky...it's not just a fist fight most of the time...once you're down, you're probably going to get some "kicking and stomping"...concussion, lost teeth, broken ribs and fingers are a likely outcome

re:5) Steer clear of any of them wearing a "probationary member" patch...they are looking for any chance to demonstrate their courage and ability to the members.

"just don't get into a fight with one" there ya' go!

[ELB]

Find Rory Miller's Facing Violence: Preparing for the Unexpected. $13 in paperback, only $8 on Kindle (and a Kindle Reader is free for PC or iPHone). Well worth the money.

Particularly read the parts on "Monkey Dance," "Educational Beatdown," and "Status Seeking Show." You will recognize some things you described in your OP, and maybe be better prepared the next time things start to go sideways. Avoiding the three Stupids is always good advice, but some times things happen.

[bizarrenormality]

If you don't think that fighting is a deadly force situation, you need to do some reading. As I said, google one punch kill.

Sorry but I have to disagree.

Unless you have taken a beat down from multiple attackers
and were armed at the time and chose not to use a weapon
because a fight is not a deadly force situation in your mind
your disagreement doesn't carry much weight in my mind.

[Shinesintx]

2- As far as how much ammo, I had a glock 22. 16+1. I did have an extra mag however it was in the car and not accessible at the time.

Thank again

The original post caused me concern as the poster is so new. Anytime that happens, I think antigun troll and am leary of new posters. If I am wrong, then my apologies.

What really bothered me is the G22 mag...as it only holds 15..

[RottenApple]

What really bothered me is the G22 mag...as it only holds 15..

He could have had a Glock Plus 2 mag extension installed. That would give him 1 extra round in a .40 s&w.

[Shinesintx]

What really bothered me is the G22 mag...as it only holds 15..

He could have had a Glock Plus 2 mag extension installed. That would give him 1 extra round in a .40 s&w.

True, and an excellent point...but I'm a skeptic.

[RottenApple]

What really bothered me is the G22 mag...as it only holds 15..

He could have had a Glock Plus 2 mag extension installed. That would give him 1 extra round in a .40 s&w.

True, and an excellent point...but I'm a skeptic.

Me too. But I'm also more curious than a cat. So, not being a Block ( ) fan, I looked up the specs on the G22 and found that mag extension.

[Excaliber]

I'm normally pretty slow to pipe in to these sort of discussions. Most of you folks seem to have much more knowledge and experience at these sort of situations than I do. But I'd like to throw out a couple of thoughts that come another side of my life.
When the OP mentioned colors, I just assumed bikers. That may not have been the case, and I know little to nothing about non-motorcycle gangs. And while I want to make it absolutely clear that I have never been a member of an out-law motorcycle club, many of my friends have been or are. While I avoid association with these groups as much as possible, I have been at events frequented by them and their members. Based on what I've seen of these groups, and on what knowledgeable friends have told me, here are some things I believe to be true. Things that it might well be good for all of us to remember.

1) There is no such thing as getting in a fight with A MC club member. There's not even such a thing as getting in a fight with SOME MC Club members. Any confrontation will be with ALL of them. Even the ones who's aren't physically there yet. If you're BA enough to whip the 6 standing in front of you, they'll send seven more.

2) You never win a fight with an MC club member. You may have ended this phase of the confrontation by injuring the guy bad enough that he can no longer attack you. (And that's probably a serious injury, because he is far more afraid of his club members finding out he lost a fight than he is of anything you can do to him.) You have only delayed the fight long enough for his buddies to come find you.

3) The club will never forget you. If they can't get to you, your friends and family will suffice until they can find you.

4) The beat down hurts and you may even carry permaniate physical reminders. But it will be over. If you shoot one of them, the rest of the club will be looking for you, your family, you're dog, or even your dogs girlfriend.

5) For the most part, non-club members are beneath their notice. Unless you do something stupid, they'll pretty much leave you alone.

My advice is, think long and hard about how important this is to you. Just don't get in a fight with one.

Edited: Change the word "biker" to "MC club member."

Your observations are very consistent with my experience.

For most folks on this Forum, your last 2 points are the most important. The others help someone understand what's in store for them if they fail to take your closing advice.

[Bgriff1974]

RottenApple wrote:
Shinesintx wrote:
What really bothered me is the G22 mag...as it only holds 15..


He could have had a Glock Plus 2 mag extension installed. That would give him 1 extra round in a .40 s&w.


True, and an excellent point...but I'm a skeptic.

I apologize as this was an error...15 + 1 is what I intended to say. Sorry for the confusion

[drjoker]

my friend argued with men wearing colors (over) 5.00 out and (after) telling my friend Get IN THE CAR!now (your friend) smart talks back at the 4 men.

1. don't go to topless bars and if you have to go to a topless place, go to a place that doesn't serve alcohol (the all nude establishments don't serve alcohol) so you could legally carry as 51% TABC bars are off limits.

2. you need to find new friends. Perhaps your friend purposely sought out trouble with those men just as much as those men sought out trouble with you and your friend. Your "friend" probably did this because he knew you had a gun. He was depressed and dark so he wanted to see someone die that night. People who are in a deep dark place want to see death. Barring the sight of dead others, some contemplate suicide. Beware of "friends" who are in deep, dark places (divorces, break-ups, passed over for a job promotion at the post office, etc.). Never let a friend in a deep dark place handle your gun. Never go to shady places with a friend in a dark place.

3. even if you do shoot those guys and you're in the right legally, that doesn't place you in the clear. Look at Zimmerman vs. Trayvon. If you're the wrong shade of tan, you could end up in jail, right or wrong, if you shoot someone.

4. alcohol and guns don't mix. You weren't drinking but your friend was and that almost cost 5 men their lives that night. Take your friend to an all nude establishment next time.