Church Volunteer Security Groups

[treeman]

A question from the end of my previous post - "What if the security officer or school officer did not direct the concealed carry folks but had knowledge of who they were?"

[Zoo]

Do gun store employees need security guard commission to carry at work?

[RottenApple]

Do gun store employees need security guard commission to carry at work?

No. It falls under the sporting use exemption. There's little or no case law supporting it, but its fairly well established as gun stores/ranges have been doing it for decades w/o issues.

[TXPhidelt817]

Personally, I carry at church. When I renewed my CHL a few months back, the Fort Worth officer that taught the class was very firm in his stance that church carry was illegal. I argued my opinion on how the PC reads but it only fell on deaf ears. The way I read the PC is that it is only illegal if the building is posted 30.06.

After the class, I reached out to a friend that is a Tarrant County DA who said that its illegal but that he had never prosecuted anyone under any similar charges.

What nonsense are they reading that I am not?

[Jaguar]

Personally, I carry at church. When I renewed my CHL a few months back, the Fort Worth officer that taught the class was very firm in his stance that church carry was illegal. I argued my opinion on how the PC reads but it only fell on deaf ears. The way I read the PC is that it is only illegal if the building is posted 30.06.

After the class, I reached out to a friend that is a Tarrant County DA who said that its illegal but that he had never prosecuted anyone under any similar charges.

What nonsense are they reading that I am not?

The problem is you are reading the whole code, and they stop before they get to the relevant section.

PC §46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:

Then in (b) it goes on to sub-section (6) which is where they are stopping (which is the nonsense.)

(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.

But look on down to sub-section (i)

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

So you are right, a church has to be posted with a valid 30.06 sign to stop a CHL holder from carrying. The fact that a cop and a DA didn't know this or wouldn't look up the code makes me...


Of course, sub-section h-1 exempts them, being a cop and a DA, so why bother with figuring it out for the rest of the public. HB3218 was introduced to fix that problem and allow us mere citizens the same privileged as

"Sheriffs, their deputies, constables, deputy constables, marshals or police officers of an incorporated city, town, or village, rangers investigators of the district attorneys', criminal district attorneys', and county attorneys' offices, agents of the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission, members of an arson investigating unit, officers commissioned under the Education Code, officers commissioned by the General Services Commission, law enforcement officers commissioned by the Parks and Wildlife Commission, airport police officers commissioned by a city with a population of more than 1.18 million located primarily in a county with a population of 2 million or more, airport security personnel commissioned as peace officers by the governing body of any political subdivision of this state, municipal park and recreational patrolmen and security officers, security officers and investigators commissioned as peace officers by the comptroller, officers commissioned by a water control and improvement districts, officers commissioned by a board of trustees under the Transportation Code, investigators commissioned by the Texas Medical Board, officers commissioned by the board of managers of the Dallas County Hospital District, the Tarrant County Hospital District, the Bexar County Hospital District, or the El Paso County Hospital District and the board of directors of the Ector County Hospital District, county park rangers commissioned under the Local Government Code, investigators employed by the Texas Racing Commission, officers commissioned under the Occupations Code, officers commissioned by the governing body of a metropolitan rapid transit authority under the Transportation Code, or by a regional transportation authority under the Transportation Code, investigators commissioned by the attorney general under Government Code, security officers and investigators commissioned as peace officers under the Government Code, an officer employed by the Department of State Health Services under the Health and Safety Code, officers appointed by an appellate court under the Government Code, officers commissioned by the state fire marshal under the Government Code, an investigator commissioned by the commissioner of insurance under the Insurance Code, apprehension specialists and inspectors general commissioned by the Texas Juvenile Justice Department as officers under the Human Resources Code, officers appointed by the inspector general of the Texas Department of Criminal Justice under the Government Code, investigators commissioned by the Commission on Law Enforcement Officer Standards and Education under the Occupations Code, commission investigators commissioned by the Texas Private Security Board under the Occupations Code, the fire marshal and any officers, inspectors, or investigators commissioned by an emergency services district under the Health and Safety Code, officers commissioned by the State Board of Dental Examiners under the Occupations Code, subject to the limitations, investigators commissioned by the Texas Juvenile Justice Department as officers under the Human Resources Code, and the fire marshal and any related officers, inspectors, or investigators commissioned by a county under the Local Government Code."

[SewTexas]

Personally, I carry at church. When I renewed my CHL a few months back, the Fort Worth officer that taught the class was very firm in his stance that church carry was illegal. I argued my opinion on how the PC reads but it only fell on deaf ears. The way I read the PC is that it is only illegal if the building is posted 30.06.

After the class, I reached out to a friend that is a Tarrant County DA who said that its illegal but that he had never prosecuted anyone under any similar charges.

What nonsense are they reading that I am not?

they're lazy, and you're not

they don't care, and you do

(and I'm tired of it all and seem to like emoticons right now )

[Keith B]

Personally, I carry at church. When I renewed my CHL a few months back, the Fort Worth officer that taught the class was very firm in his stance that church carry was illegal. I argued my opinion on how the PC reads but it only fell on deaf ears. The way I read the PC is that it is only illegal if the building is posted 30.06.

After the class, I reached out to a friend that is a Tarrant County DA who said that its illegal but that he had never prosecuted anyone under any similar charges.

What nonsense are they reading that I am not?

You are correct and they are incorrect. The DA and the officers need to read all the way down ot section (i) to see that these have been basically nullified unless they have posted a 30.06.

[TXPhidelt817]

Appreciate the confirmation folks..

The class was taught at Winchester Gun Range over in FW in case anyone was wondering...

[SlowDave]

...that taught the class was very firm in his stance that church carry was illegal. I argued my opinion on how the PC reads but it only fell on deaf ears.

After the class, I reached out to a friend that is a Tarrant County DA who said that its illegal but that he had never prosecuted anyone under any similar charges.

Would be a great public service if you were to find a way to politely inform those two public servants of the entire law. One of your CHL brothers may be in danger of being falsely arrested/prosecuted by them in their ignorance. Surely the DA would look up and read the whole law before going for a prosecution, but just the same... The officer might be best approached through the chain of command because if he thinks it, there are likely several other in his department that share the same misconception.

[howdy]

When I "confront" one of these un-informed LEO's I quote 46.02:


PC §46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits
an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries
on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the
person is not:
(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's
control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned
by the person or under the person's control.
(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly,
or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a
motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's
control at any time in which:
(1) the handgun is in plain view; or
(2) the person is:
(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor
that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic;
(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section
71.01.
(a-2) For purposes of this section, "premises" includes real property

I state that Texas law CLEARLY says that NO PERSON may carry on or about his person a hand gun. I then ask how he gets by that law and carrys a handgun. I say it is very obvious that somewhere in the law, there is an exception to 46.02 if you are a LEO. In that same section is the exception for a CHL holder. I emphasize that one must read the entire law to fully understand what it means. You would think an attorney would know that. See if you can find this Instructor's email address, or his name and work email, and I will write him and in a friendly way explain the error of his ways. You can PM the info to me.

[SlowDave]

So, I was a bit confused also, as the original post really centered on school security, but the discussion (and my interest) is focused on church security. Just to make sure I understand, the point at which a CHL would not be allowed to carry is when:
1. He joins into any type of organized group providing anything resembling security, with or without disaster-response plans. "Anything resembling security" would include monitoring the parking lot but would not include teaching Sunday School or taking offering, for example.

So, I guess there could be "parking lot greeters" who are not organized for any type of security but just to greet people, direct them where to park, assist older folks and all that, and if there are no disaster-response plans and no discussion whatsoever of CHL possession, no discussion of carrying of firearms, and no discussion of security ever, they would still be okay to perform this function and if any of them are CHLs, would not be prohibited from carrying during this activity.

Is that accurate?

(And sorry for the 1 item list; my h.s. grammar teacher is coming after me now!)

[TXPhidelt817]

When I "confront" one of these un-informed LEO's I quote 46.02:


PC §46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits
an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries
on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the
person is not:
(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's
control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned
by the person or under the person's control.
(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly,
or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a
motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's
control at any time in which:
(1) the handgun is in plain view; or
(2) the person is:
(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor
that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic;
(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section
71.01.
(a-2) For purposes of this section, "premises" includes real property

I state that Texas law CLEARLY says that NO PERSON may carry on or about his person a hand gun. I then ask how he gets by that law and carrys a handgun. I say it is very obvious that somewhere in the law, there is an exception to 46.02 if you are a LEO. In that same section is the exception for a CHL holder. I emphasize that one must read the entire law to fully understand what it means. You would think an attorney would know that. See if you can find this Instructor's email address, or his name and work email, and I will write him and in a friendly way explain the error of his ways. You can PM the info to me.

PM Sent.. Thanks

[SewTexas]

depends on how you read it....

some say parking lot "greeters" is not ok, others say it's not;
everyone agrees that any committee that has the word "security" on it is apparently not ok;

I tend toward the first group when it comes to parking lot greeters, you're directing traffic and saying hi, at least in my small church, our group is not asked to stay out for the whole service. (In our large church in CO it was a different job, but it was a different law, too)

[alvins]

I personally don't see how someone with a chl would want the duty to protect people at church and open themselves up to being sued.d

What if you are providing security and someone tried to cause trouble and you shot them and at the same time you accidently shot an innocent person? should you get immunity from being sued or put in jail? I certainly hope not.

For me if your not family or a very close friend good luck with me providing protection.

[Charles L. Cotton]

I personally don't see how someone with a chl would want the duty to protect people at church and open themselves up to being sued.d

What if you are providing security and someone tried to cause trouble and you shot them and at the same time you accidently shot an innocent person? should you get immunity from being sued or put in jail? I certainly hope not.

For me if your not family or a very close friend good luck with me providing protection.

That's your decision and you have every right to make it. Others chose to help their fellow church members, or children in the case of schools. Neither you nor those who feel differently are wrong; it's an individual decision.

My choice is not to imitate Nero and fiddle while Rome burns.

Chas.