eligibility question / drug treatment ?

[thefloorguy]

I have a hang up on the drug treatment question on the TX CHL application. I don't want to lie on the application but I would like to know what the DPS checks in reference to this. How would they find out if I was in drug treatment or not? I was once falsely reported to CPS for drug abuse and voluntarily went to outpatient treatment.

[jmra]

If you are going to answer truthfully does it really matter how they do their research?

[TexasCajun]

Get a copy of your file from your Dr. List the treatment. Include a copy of the med file with an explanation of the circumstance concerning the treatment. Better to include too much info vs not enough.

[Jumping Frog]

Assessing one's risk of getting caught is completely unrelated to deciding to complete the application legally and truthfully.

[baldeagle]

You have several choices when filling out the application.

You can be completely forthcoming and provide them with all the information about your situation. If there is something disqualifying, you will not be issued a license. If there is nothing disqualifying, you will be issued a license.

You can be honest on the application but not divulge details. When they find out, they will contact you and ask you for more detail. If you fail to provide everything relevant, you may be disqualified and not issued a license. At a minimum the issuance of your license will be delayed.

You can lie on the application by leaving out the information. When they find out, you may be charged with a Class A misdemeanor and denied a license. If convicted, you will have to wait 5 years before you can receive a license, if approved.

You can falsify the application. When they find out, you may be charged with perjury, a Class A misdemeanor or aggravated perjury, a third degree felony. If you're convicted of a felony, you'll have to wait 10 years before you can receive a license, if approved.

The choice is yours.

I would choose the first option. Provide them with all relevant official records and include a narrative explaining what took place. You are only required to provide information about any drug treatment received in the past five years, but I would provide everything regardless of how much time has passed. DPS has been known to ask for documentation of issues that have occurred decades ago.

[Gat0rs]

Were you committed by a court? If not, I am not sure how they would know. I am not sure outpatiernt is what the question literally asks, either. What is the question on the application? Something like were you committed or something.

I think you can also get a letter from a doctor that says you are safe to have a weapon. Soemwhere in the CHL law pdf is talks about it.

[ScottDLS]

Were you committed by a court? If not, I am not sure how they would know. I am not sure outpatiernt is what the question literally asks, either. What is the question on the application? Something like were you committed or something.

I think you can also get a letter from a doctor that says you are safe to have a weapon. Soemwhere in the CHL law pdf is talks about it.

I think there was a thread going on this earlier...forget the link. But I did look up the application and find the relevant question so I'm going to offer the original poster my opinion for what it's worth (here on the internet).

Have you ever been treated and/or admitted to a facility for drug, alcohol and/or psychiatric care ;
OR been diagnosed as suffering from a psychiatric disorder or condition that causes or is likely to cause substantial impairment in judgment, mood, perception, impulse control, or intellectual ability;
OR pled innocent by reason of insanity;
ORbeen found mentally incompetent;
OR had court ordered outpatient treatment ?

From the OP post and information provided I would say the answer is NO. He reported VOLUNTARY outpatient treatment. Some will point to the "treated and/or admitted to a facility, and say he should answer YES, he was treated... I say NO he wasn't treated in a FACILITY and find further support in the CHL-78C where the address of the FACILITY is requested, etc. Regardless of the (perhaps) unclear wording of the application, we should look at the ELIGIBILITY section of the actual CHL law.

GC §411.172. ELIGIBILITY. (a) A person is eligible for a license to carry a concealed handgun if the person:
...
(14) has not made any material misrepresentation, or failed to disclose any material fact, in an application submitted pursuant to Section 411.174.
...
(d) For purposes of Subsection (a)(7), a person is incapable of exercising sound judgment with respect to the proper use and storage of a handgun if the person:
(1) has been diagnosed by a licensed physician as suffering from a psychiatric disorder or condition that causes or is likely to cause substantial impairment in judgment, mood, perception, impulse control, or intellectual ability;
(2) suffers from a psychiatric disorder or condition described by Subdivision (1) that:
(A) is in remission but is reasonably likely to redevelop at a future time; or
(B) requires continuous medical treatment to avoid redevelop-ment;
(3) has been diagnosed by a licensed physician, determined by a review board or similar authority, or declared by a court to be incompetent to manage the person's own affairs; or
(4) has entered in a criminal proceeding a plea of not guilty by reason of insanity.
(e) The following constitutes evidence that a person has a psychiatric disorder or condition described by Subsection (d)(1):
(1) involuntary psychiatric hospitalization;
(2) psychiatric hospitalization;
(3) inpatient or residential substance abuse treatment in the preceding five-year period;
(4) diagnosis in the preceding five-year period by a licensed physician that the person is dependent on alcohol, a controlled substance, or a similar substance; or
(5) diagnosis at any time by a licensed physician that the person suffers or has suffered from a psychiatric disorder or condition consisting of or relating to:
(A) schizophrenia or delusional disorder;
(B) bipolar disorder;
(C) chronic dementia, whether caused by illness, brain defect, or brain injury;
(D) dissociative identity disorder;
(E) intermittent explosive disorder; or
(F) antisocial personality disorder.
(f) Notwithstanding Subsection (d), a person who has previously been diagnosed as suffering from a psychiatric disorder or condition described by Subsection (d) or listed in Subsection (e) is not because of that disorder or condition incapable of exercising sound judgment with respect to the proper use and storage of a handgun if the person provides the department with a certificate from a licensed physician whose primary practice is in the field of psychiatry stating that the psychiatric disorder or condition is in remission and is not reasonably likely to develop at a future time.

The application language is not the law. An omission made after a reasonable reading of the question by a layperson (or lawyer for that matter) is not a MATERIAL misrepresentation. From the information posted the OP has NO disqualifying condition under the law, so why invite further unnecessary scrutiny by waffling on one of the questions? Being convicted of perjury or even (in Texas) having an administrative denial of the CHL, requires a pretty high bar.

It's interesting to understand all the ins and outs of the Texas CHL law, but I think we also have to apply some (un)common sense before we unnecessarily concern people.

[IANAL]

If you are going to answer truthfully does it really matter how they do their research?

[thefloorguy]

thanks for all replies

this question was regarding my fiancé. she worded it different then I had suggested. She never plan to lie. she was unclear on if her case was really considered what it's asking. She went voluntary and actually never finish. She going to try going to the place see if still there and if is get any records of being there if any. The question come from if she put yes think it ask for supporting documents that she may not be able to even get.

[OldGrumpy]

If this person went to treatment as result of report to CPS there is probably a record in the state records that is going to turn up. Now another point - they never completed treatment but they want to get a CHL. Not sure I want to be around if they do.

[Gat0rs]

If she went voluntarily then a report from CPS would have no mention of treatment, because it was voluntary...

[RPBrown]

Was it more than 5 years ago. If so, thats what is asked, if they have been treated in the previous 5 years.

[sjfcontrol]

You can falsify the application. When they find out, you may be charged with perjury, a Class A misdemeanor or aggravated perjury, a third degree felony. If you're convicted of a felony, you'll have to wait 10 years before you can receive a license, if approved.

I have seen this statement, about a 10-year period after which you may be eligible after conviction of a felony. I do not believe the eligibility requirements are being properly interpreted.

GC411.172(a)(3) requires that the person, "has not been convicted of a felony". Period. No time period is mentioned.

The only place I see 10 years associated with a felony is in GC 411.172(a)(13)

(13) has not, in the 10 years preceding the date of application, been adjudicated as having engaged in delinquent conduct violating a penal law of the grade of felony.

Note that this is "Delinquent Conduct" which is only applicable to a juvenile. So if you are found guilty of felony Delinquent Conduct as a juvenile, it only disqualifies you for a period of 10 years. Since juveniles are people under 17 years of age, this clause is meaningless to people 27 years old or older. (And may be meaningless to people even younger depending on how old they were when found guilty.)

Adult felony convictions are a permanent disqualification.

[The_Busy_Mom]

If she went voluntarily then a report from CPS would have no mention of treatment, because it was voluntary...

Incorrect, grasshopper.

CPS can, and will, report on the 'voluntary' treatments of parents/guardians. Someone can voluntarily go to psychiatric appointments, but if there is a CPS involvement, that 'voluntary' act is now a supporting factor. In other words, CPS reports 'Parent voluntarily submitted to outpatient treatment,' and it becomes part of the permanent file. The ONLY way to have no CPS file/report once an investigation has been initiated, is to have a result of No Finding, and then to have your name redacted from every report. It takes petitioning the state to get the redaction. And, IIRC, un-redacted investigations, whether there was a finding or not, remain in the state files for 5-7 years.

TBM

[bayouhazard]

There are people who were admitted to a facility without being committed involuntarily.
There are people who were treated at a facility without being admitted. (out patient)

I think honesty is the best policy but I know others disagree.