New Traveling Law

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orc4hire

Re: HB823's Author's Press Release

#61

Post by orc4hire »

Last edited by orc4hire on Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

cxm
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Writing Legislation

#62

Post by cxm »

I have to agree with you on this one Chas. at least in a general sense.

Writing legislation is not hard, it just requires you understand the fact that words mean things. My office writes language for Federal legislation quite often... and reviews others writing too... and none of us are lawyers... but we do have experience in writing legislative language.

The big trick seems to be reading language in terms of how your opponents will read it, how the unwashed masses will read it and how wacko judges and their clerks will read it. That is why simple specific clear language is so essential.

Few people understand the impact of politics on the legislative process... as an example, I think the gun grabbers might well have gotten the "brady" bill renewed if they had been a bit flexable ... for example on magazine capacity... as a result they lost everyting... much like the opposition to the origianl bill might have salvaged the magazine part if they had comprimised... it is a complex system.

V/r

Chuck

Charles L. Cotton wrote:Jim, no offense taken.

Let me clear up a misunderstanding I obviously created. When I say attorneys should be writing the bills that ultimately become law, I don't mean that only attorneys should be elected to the House or Senate. Neither do I mean that attorneys should be the only elected representatives who should decide what laws should be passed. I simply mean I think the people who reduce the desired legislative intent to writing should be attorneys. The reason I pointed out that less than 50% of Texas House Members and Texas Senators are attorneys is to counter the common belief that lawyers control the legislature. If we did, you certainly would never have seen the so-called "tort reform" bill a/k/a Insurance Company Protection and Profit Act. (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

Much of the convoluted language we wind up with in bills/statutes is not the result of attorneys desiring to use such language from scratch, but is the result of compromises between friends and foes on any given issue. As a very general statement, the more opposing interests have to compromise, the more difficult it is to craft a bill that will yield the desired result, and do so within the constraints of the Texas Constitution. Another problem with going to “plain language� is that we are usually changing existing statutes that are written in “legalese� making it impossible to use “plain language� without an entire rewrite of the statute. Complete rewrites are very difficult and time consuming and are only rarely attempted.

So, to disburse the lynch mob, I do not believe only attorneys should decide what the law should be, only that they are better equipped to reduce the idea to writing that will be enforceable.

Regards,
Chas.
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#63

Post by jimlongley »

Hey, I will not argue that legislation can be hard to read, and interpret, and understand, all I am saying is that lawyers are not necessarily, for all their acknowledged expertise, the best choice for writing the bills.

I think a good example is the Second Amendment.
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Charles L. Cotton
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UPDATE:

#64

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

Here is an update on the HB823 issue. A "Journal Statement" is an official record if the Texas House of Representatives and it is clear evidence of Legislative intent for a bill. Chairman Keel's Journal Statement is entirely consistent with his recent press release on the intent and effect of HB823. It is also consistent with my recollection of the events and discussions dealing with the scope of HB823, not that that matters one whit! :lol:

What does matter is that there is yet more evidence of Legislative intent from the bill's author (the real one). My biggest fear is that people like Harris County DA Chuck Rosenthal will be too proud to admit that they were wrong on HB823 and will prosecute innocent people, rather than “lose face.� Unfortunately, this can happen when an elected official runs their mouth on emotion, rather than unbiased, objective evaluation. I've done it myself in my youth, but I try hard to avoid a repeat performance. Apparently, Mr. Rosenthal missed that lesson in life.

Rosenthal fought hard to kill HB823 and when his efforts failed, he then fought equally hard to get Gov. Perry to veto it. Once again he failed. He couldn’t take losing, so he launched an unprecedented media campaign of fear and intimidation against honest citizens. He appeared on talk shows, wrote an article for the Houston Chronicle and even wrote a Letter to the Editor of the Houston Chronicle. His recent claim that he “went public� in an attempt to protect citizens of Harris County rings rather hollow, in view of his efforts to kill the bill.

When I first started working on CHL in 1980, I wrote a bill for filing in the 1981 Regular Session. (It didn't get filed, because the murder of John Lennon with a handgun in December, 1980 caused a nationwide furor against handguns.) I had a House sponsor who said he had a Senator willing to carry the companion bill. I called Johnny Holmes’ office and talked to his second in command, Henry Onken (sp?), offering to send a copy of the bill to Johnny Holmes. They accepted. A few weeks later, Mr. Holmes was speaking at a rotary club luncheon that was also attended by a Houston Chronicle reporter. In a Chronicle article, Mr. Holmes blasted the “absurd idea of letting anyone carry a gun.� (You can imagine the conversation I had with Mr. Onken after that!)

From 1980 until June, 1996, Johnny Holmes fought hard against the various CHL bills, ultimately losing the battle when SB60 passed on May 16, 1995. In June, 1996, the House Committee on Public Safety conducted an interim study on implementation of SB60 at the Houston City Hall Annex. I was one of the invited speakers, as was Johnny Holmes. When I asked him in the hall if he was going to blast us again, he just smiled and said “I think you’ll be happy with what I have to say.� He then testified that the CHL statute had worked beautifully, CHL holders have proven themselves very responsible citizens, and publically admitted he had been wrong for opposing CHL bills for so many years. In my view, that earned him a great deal of respect. Mr. Holmes went on to state his positions numerous times in print and on television and radio. Only time will tell if Chuck Rosenthal exhibits the same intellectual honesty as did his predecessor. I am not optimistic.

Regards,
Chas.

Journal Statement by Rep. Keel re: HB 823

It is well established in Texas that a person who is traveling has a right to possess a handgun for personal protection. The practical problem with this right has historically been that courts have disagreed on the definition of “traveling�. The legislature has likewise never defined “traveling� because a definition invariably has the unintended effect of unfairly limiting the term to a narrow set of circumstances.

HB 823 shores up the right of citizens to carry a concealed handgun while traveling by further underscoring the inapplicability of the offense of unlawfully carrying a weapon ("UCW") (Penal Code §46.02) to persons under particular factual circumstances. It does this by providing for a legal presumption in favor of citizens that they are travelers if they are in a private vehicle with a handgun that is not in plain view, they are not otherwise engaged in unlawful activity nor otherwise prohibited by law from possessing a firearm, and they are not a member of a criminal street gang.

In plain terms, a law-abiding person should not fear arrest if they are transporting a concealed pistol in a motor vehicle. There is no longer the need for a law enforcement officer to apply a subjective definition of what constitutes “traveling� where the citizen is cloaked with the presumption per the terms of the new statute. Under those circumstances the citizen should be allowed to proceed on their way.

HB 823 represents the first time a presumption has been crafted in favor of a defendant in the modern penal code of Texas. The presumption applies unless the prosecution proves beyond a reasonable doubt that the facts giving rise to the presumption do not exist. If the state fails to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the facts giving rise to the presumption do not exist, the jury must find that the presumed fact exists. By enacting this unprecedented evidentiary standard under §2.05 in conjunction with the substantive terms of the presumption in §46.15, the legislation is intended to have the practical effect of preventing in the first place the arrest of citizens who meet the newly specified prerequisites of being a presumed traveler.

It should be noted that the very real problem of citizens having to prove their innocence after arrest by the assertion of their right to carry a firearm while traveling was the reason the 75th legislature replaced the “defense� of traveling with a classification of the statute of UCW as instead entirely “inapplicable� to a traveler. This change was well-intentioned but did not have the intended effect of protecting honest citizens from potential arrest because the term “traveling� was still left to individual police or judicial officials to define on a case-by-case basis. As a consequence, law-abiding citizens who availed themselves of their right to have a handgun while traveling continued to face arrest and often later prevailed only in a court of law after proving that they were indeed traveling. As originally filed, HB 823 proposed to classify traveling as an "exception" (per Penal Code §2.02) to prosecution for UCW. However, after further consideration, the Criminal Jurisprudence Committee concluded that such an approach would be as ineffective as the 1997 change for the very same reasons.

In passing HB 823, this legislature, like all previous legislatures, has declined to define traveling, avoiding limiting the term to a narrow set of particular circumstances. For example, to require someone to have an overnight stay in a journey in order to be classified as a traveler would be unfair to persons traveling great distances in one day. Likewise, a requirement that a citizen be “crossing county lines� may make no sense, such as in areas of Texas where travelers drive hundreds of miles without leaving a single county. Moreover, the ability of police to elicit such evidence and consistently apply its subjective terms on the street in a traffic stop has not proven practical, at all. HB 823 instead focuses on creating a specific set of relevant, objective facts that are capable of being determined on the spot by law officers.

There are several additional important points that should be made in regard to the enactment of HB 823 and its interface with current law.

HB 823 does not give “everyone the right to carry a gun in a car�. State and federal laws applicable to firearms must be noted in conjunction with the new statute’s terms, particularly the limitation of the presumption to persons who are “not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing a firearm.� For example, persons subject to an active protective order are not covered by the presumption, nor are persons with any felony conviction or even some misdemeanor convictions for offenses, e.g., family violence. The presumption is likewise inapplicable to persons associated with a criminal street gang, even if they have no conviction for any offense. These as well as all other existing limitations on firearm ownership and/or possession make the new statute inapplicable to persons covered by such prohibitions.

Furthermore, as stated in the statute, the presumption will not apply to persons who are otherwise engaged in any criminal conduct. This would include persons who are driving while intoxicated, driving recklessly, committing criminal mischief, or committing any other criminal offense outside that of a minor traffic infraction.

The presumption also does not apply where the gun is openly displayed. The was added by the Senate in response to concerns that citizens would otherwise possibly inadvertently have a weapon visible in a fast food or bank drive thru, etcetera, and alarm others. (Note, however, that the requirement that the gun be concealed is pertinent only to the issue of whether the defendant is eligible to receive a presumption instruction per the new terms of §2.05. It is not a new element required of a person who is traveling within the context of §46.15).

The enactment of HB 823 was the culmination of study, committee hearings and debate by the House Committee on Criminal Jurisprudence. The new law is intended to assist law enforcement in doing its job while at the same time protecting law-abiding citizens from the threat of arrest for merely exercising their right to arm themselves while traveling----a right to which they are already entitled.

Terry Keel, Chair
Criminal Jurisprudence Committee
Last edited by Charles L. Cotton on Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#65

Post by tehlump »

Charles-your insights into the real-world legislative process are very informative. Thank you for the latest update!
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#66

Post by dws1117 »

Thanks for posting this Charles. It clears several quwstions that I had.
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responses

#67

Post by tomneal »

I wrote the Texas AG with a cc: to Chuck R.

The Harris County DA wrote back immediatly. He rehashed the info he had give the the Houston Chron.

I just heard back from the AG's office.
Thank you for contacting the Office of the Attorney General.

Please understand that the Attorney General has no direct authority over other, independently elected state and local officials. You may wish to contact your local prosecutor about your concerns.

Again, thank you for writing.
not very useful
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Charles L. Cotton
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#68

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

The AG's office is prohibited from issuing informal advisory opinions and can only issue formal AG Opinions when they are requested by certain specified people, such as Representatives, Senators, and some other elected officials. At times this seems a shame, but when Morales was AG, I was very glad the limitation was in place!

Regards,
Chas.

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#69

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Charles L. Cotton wrote: . . . when Morales was AG, I was very glad the limitation was in place!
And now he's the captain's orderly, mopping the main corridor. :lol:

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Re: UPDATE:

#70

Post by jimlongley »

Charles L. Cotton wrote: When I first started working on CHL in 1980, I wrote a bill for filing in the 1981 Regular Session. (It didn't get filed, because the murder of John Lennon with a handgun in December, 1980 caused a nationwide furor against handguns.)
Boy do I remember that. I was chairman of a fund that was jointly sponsored by the various sportsmen's clubs in Albany County NY (37 believe it or not.) The purpose of the fund was to try to stop a variety of anti-pistol permit tactics by the licensing officers.

In NY there have been "concealed carry" permits since 1911, of course you also have to get a permit just to own a handgun, and therein lay the rub.

The issuing authority was a hired or elected official who did the job on a full or part time basis. In other words, in some jurisdictions there was a staffer who was responsible for the issuance or non-issuance, but in many it fell on a judge, county or city, to do the task, and those who were anti-gun could bench veto permits just by never acting on them - no denial, which might be able to be appealed, just no action ever, usually because their workload was too heavy for unimportant stuff like that. When the Sullivan Law was enacted it was never envisioned to be so long lasting nor was it expected that so many people would want handguns.

So we found a test case and sued a judge, and were successful in making him act on the permit, which he denied, so we sued him again over the denial, and again and...

Concurrently we were running a campaign in the legislature to get coherent rules for pistol permit issuance or non-issuance (kind of "shall issue") and the Lennon was shot, in NY STATE and it became intuitively obvious that guns were already too easy to get in NY State or NY City, and our legislative effort went down in flames.

Our suits dried up our funds.

And then I wound up in the hospital, very sick, and nobody from the gun club came to visit, so, in a fit of pique, I quit the gun club, and of course the committee, and it (the committee) collapsed without my leadership. Well, that last is probably apocryphal, but the committee was never a force in politics again, if it could have been said to be one before.

I became the chair by making the motion at a joint meeting - everybody thought that what I proposed was a good idea, so they thought I should run with it. I often wished I had run from it. :lol:
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#71

Post by stevie_d_64 »

I don't know if any of you have noticed...But PDO's Texas page has been updated...For years we had a "NO" in the "peaceable journey" box at the top of the page...

It is now a "YES"...

Not that its that big a deal...It doesn't effect me...
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I have a CHL and it still affects me

#72

Post by tomneal »

my son is 20 and can't get his CHL yet

My wife won't get her CHL and often takes home the night depost from the medical office, where she works.

She is only 2 bloocks away,
if there are any strange cars in the parking lot
she calls
I saddle up (if needed)
and drive over there.
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#73

Post by Lumberjack98 »

Thanks for the clarification Charles. I was outraged by Rosethal's scare tactic blitz campaign.
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HPD Joins Chuck Rosenthal in Ignoring Legislative Intent

#74

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

Here is HPD's "new policy" on making UCW arrests. Note this is in spite of Chairman Keel's press release and his comments in the official "Journal" that have now been made public. We have Chuck Rosenthal to thank for this and I hope everyone remembers when he is up for re-election.

While HPD is technically correct in that an arrest can be made and the defendant will have to go to court to benefit from the new presumption, to make an arrest under those circumstances is wrong. Why put a person through the system, if you know they are going to be acquitted? The only answer is the hope that the harassment value will keep people from carrying.

I have a lot of friends who are police officers, some with or formerly with HPD. I think I know how they will react to this "policy," but it is grossly unfair to put them in the position of having to arrest honest citizens simply following the new law, or face disciplinary action for failing to do so.

The point that really infurates me is that Chuck Rosenthal was elected by the citizens of Harris County to prosecute people acused of violating the law. In that position, he should be a shining example of a law-abiding citizen, one who follows not only the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law as well. LEO's have a term "feather-leg ticket" referring to the writing of a ticket that is valid, but one that is really stretches the bounds of reason. (That was hard to say without violating the forum language rule! :) ) This concept applies here in spades. Technically, a CHL holder can be arrested and his/her CHL will prevent them from being convicted, but no self-respecting LEO would make such an arrest and no self-respecting DA or ADA would accept the charges. It will take only slightly more effort by the officer on the street to confirm the 5 elements of the traveling presumption and not make an arrest. Gang members and convicted felons would not benefit from this new law, and Rosenthal knows it.

As discussed before, the Penal Code §1.05(a) provides that “The rule that a penal statute is to be strictly construed does not apply to this code. The provisions of this code shall be construed according to the fair import of their terms, to promote justice and effect the objectives of the code. Thus, a person can be arrested, prosecuted and convicted for violation of the intent of a penal code provision, even if the defendant’s conduct did not violate the letter of the law. However, Chuck Rosenthal clearly believes he and is office are not bound by this concept, only we mere citizens. Harold L. Hurtt, Chief of the Houston Police Department, apparently agrees. Such an attitude by those charged with enforcing the law is despicable.

Regards,
Chas.
In light of the recent clarifications in what constitutes “traveling� while carrying a pistol, here is HPD’s policy:

Houston Police To Enforce Unlawful Carrying of Weapons

September 1, 2005 -- Generally, Texas law prohibits a person from carrying a weapon in a motor vehicle unless that person is "traveling," complying with another defense under the law, or is a concealed handgun license holder.

While the penal code does not specifically define "traveling," Texas case law provides guidance regarding this matter. House Bill 823 creates a presumption in Section 2.05 of the Texas Penal Code that a person is "traveling" in certain circumstances. A person is presumed to be traveling if he or she is:
* In a private vehicle
* Not otherwise engaged in criminal activity other than a traffic offense
* Not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing a firearm, being a felon
* Not a member of a criminal street gang
* Not carrying a handgun in plain view

This change does not prevent law enforcement officers from arresting a person who is in a motor vehicle for carrying a handgun under Section 46.02 of the Texas Penal Code if the person is not "traveling."
A Houston police officer will speak with a motorist and conduct a thorough investigation to determine if the motorist was in the course of "traveling," should a weapon be located in a vehicle. Officers will then contact the Harris County District Attorney's office to determine if the charge of unlawfully carrying a weapon is appropriate.
9-01-05

For additional information, please contact the HPD Public Affairs Division at 713-308-3200.

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Re: HPD Joins Chuck Rosenthal in Ignoring Legislative Intent

#75

Post by KBCraig »

Charles L. Cotton wrote:LEO's have a term "feather-leg ticket" referring to the writing of a ticket that is valid, but one that is really stretches the bounds of reason. (That was hard to say without violating the forum language rule! :) )
"Charlie Sierra", Charles. Charlie Sierra. :)

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