Do We Really Want Safe Schools?

[RHenriksen]

It has been reported that Adam Lanza had a recognized mental condition, diagnosed by psychiatrists. I would suggest that it would be reasonable to require all mental health providers to report to local law enforcement such conditions with recomendations regarding public safety issues such as violent tendancies, driving restrictions, and firearms ownership. Failure to do so, could result in civil and criminal penalties. Local law enforcement would then visit the individual and other members of the household and report to NCIC as appropriate. This approach would be similar to the current requirements to report bullet wounds, child abuse etc.

Just maybe such an approach would have caused Adam's mother to rethink her actions and saved lives.

I do think that the mental health system in this country has degenerated to almost nothing. And privacy policies put in place by HIPAA are a major obstacle to making effective the existing laws against purchase of firearms by people with mental problems. What exactly the right way to resolve these problems isn't clear to me, but I'd like careful thought put towards this goal while avoiding the sort of Orwellian nightmare Charles describes.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Campus-Police Are Not Enough
Some will argue that it is not necessary to spend the millions of dollars required to create truly secure campuses as set out in the first alternative, or to authorize teachers and staff to carry handguns in school as set out in the second alternative. The solution that will be offered is to simply require police officers to be present in all schools.

While having police officers present is desirable, this alone is insufficient. Schools that do have police officers on campus typically have only one or two officers available to respond to threats. This is insufficient even in a small school that has more than one entrance to the building and it is grossly inadequate in large schools that resemble junior colleges in their size and breadth.

Assuming the police officer is not killed attempting to protect students, it is quite likely that the presence of one or two officers will merely reduce the body count. When we’re talking about our children, there is no such thing as an acceptable casualty rate. If the lone officer is killed or incapacitated by the assailant, the students are defenseless and the tragedy at Newtown will be repeated.

I am always leary of absolute statements.
Sometimes police presence IS all that is needed.

Emphasis on the "sometimes." People are calling for absolute solutions and that involves gun control that won't do a single thing to prevent another massacre.

Something not shown on liberal TV news channels was that the Colorado shooter (Aurora) went to three other theators first and when he saw no anti gun signs he went to the next theator. The fourth theator had Colorado's version of 30.06. He knew CHL holders would abide by the law so that was his target.

There were multiple police officers outside the theater in Aurora and their presence didn't stop the shooter from entering and slaughtering people. In fact, those officers didn't even enter until 11 minutes or more after the shooting started. In fact, the shooter was finished and sitting in a chair when officers finally did enter.

A police car and a cop or two is a pretty powerful deterent. I do in fact believe a single cop at an average school with a well marked car out front would be a very strong deterant. Add a cop or two at larger schools and I think this is a very cost effective way to handle school shootings. To add further "layers" of protection (such as the concern a cop get picked off first) add CHL administrators and teachers. A final layer would be single point entry with monitoring as most schools already have.

I don't disagree with having campus COPS, but we'll have to disagree about their presence being "a pretty powerful deterrent." While common criminals are unlikely to enter a building to commit a crime if a police car are or COPS are visible, we're not talking about common criminals, we're talking about dedicated shooters (the vogue term "active shooter" isn't nearly as descriptive of the mindset of these mass murderers.) These people may or may not be deterred. Again, if we are going to demand safe schools, then let's get the job done right, rather than use it as a sound bite to further restrict Second Amendment rights.

Most schools already have single point entry.

Perhaps in the Dallas area, but not in the Houston area. There may be a single designated entry, but there's a lot more than one door. Plus, the doors that exist can be compromised and entered easily, in contract to the secure doors I mentioned in the first alternative. Also, every classroom's outside windows are easily breached or used as a gun port.

Park a police care near this (or other well exposed area) and a roving cop on campus and that is pretty much the total cost other than teacher administrator training which would be a minimal cost of city police did the training.

Again, I'm not opposed to this at all. I am absolutely opposed to a solution that only involves more COPS on campus. That absolutely is not sufficient. So either build the federal reserve bank type of school, or have a combination of armed teachers and staff and COPS if the district can afford it.

Chas.

[howdy]

My Daughter is a first grade Teacher (with her CHL). She came by our house last Friday in tears because of the babies being killed. She was also very mad that the Government has made her and her students helpless. She wants her gun. She said she would never leave her students (babies) to go hunt for the bad guy. She would lock down and engage the shooter ONLY if he came in her room. They practice lockdown drills when ALL students are in their homeroom. The Teacher KNOWS it is about to happen, so they have their keys out and are ready. It never happens when students are at lunch, outside at recess etc. That has not been practiced so they really have no clue what to do during these times. Look at how these Teachers acted at Sandy Hook. They were nothing short of Heros. One Teacher read nursery rhymes to her students. Another hid her kids in closets and cabinets and then faced the BG. They can remain calm and stay focused.

I am a retired Airline pilot and I remember what was being said about "Pilots carrying guns" in response to the 9-11 tragedy. I was in the second class of Federal Flight Deck Officers and the Instructors were amazed at how seriously we took the training. There are now thousands of Pilots that are armed and the program is a complete success. We had to have time off and pay for room and board while at training. The training was at no cost to us and was at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. We were deputized as Federal Law Enforcement Officers with limited authority. This can be done with Teachers but at a local level (there are alot more Teachers than pilots), but the immediate solution is to allow CHL's to carry now.

[Charles L. Cotton]

While I agree with most of the article, I was somewhat put off by the use of the phrase "mental health bogeymen". I suspect many on the forum know or are familar with people who who maybe should not have firearms. If we continue to take the same old positions, we'll see the same results as the last election.

We really need to be ready to address the mental health situation and the wholely inadequate system we have now. It may be the only dog we'll have in the upcoming witch hunt.

Mental health arguments in this context are a bogyman. I'm not saying our mental health facilities and policies are sufficient to deal with people in need, but it's not the answer to mass murderers. There was nothing in Adam Lanza's medical records that would or should be used to involuntarily commit him, at least not that I have seen reported. Look at the other school shooters and to my recollection, none had been diagnosed with a mental illness that would have supported involuntary commitment.

So-called civil commitment is already being discussed and it scares the snot out of me! Declaring someone insane or incompetent was a favored tactic of Hitler, the Soviet Union, North Korea and numerous other oppressive regimes. When the government, rather than psychiatrists, gets to decide who's mentally incompetent, we're in trouble.

On a more practical note, there are people in Washington who support a mandatory psychological exam before being able to own a gun, much less carry it. Focusing on mental health issues in response to Newtown is a mistake, in my view.

Chas.

It has been reported that Adam Lanza had a recognized mental condition, diagnosed by psychiatrists.

There's no documented evidence of either, just media reporting. Even if he suffered from autism or Asperger's Syndrome, neither indicate a tendency toward violence.

I would suggest that it would be reasonable to require all mental health providers to report to local law enforcement such conditions with recomendations regarding public safety issues such as violent tendancies, driving restrictions, and firearms ownership. Failure to do so, could result in civil and criminal penalties. Local law enforcement would then visit the individual and other members of the household and report to NCIC as appropriate. This approach would be similar to the current requirements to report bullet wounds, child abuse etc.

As I mentioned earlier, this approach scares the snot out of me! So we let an anti-gun shrink decide whether or not I can drive, or own a gun? How about having children or getting married? Under your proposal, most of the mental health professionals will leave the practice and do something else for fear of criminal prosecution or civil suits.

There is no way to prevent these violent attacks. The best we can do is be prepared to respond and eliminate the threat.

Chas.

[n5wd]

Something not shown on liberal TV news channels was that the Colorado shooter (Aurora) went to three other theators first and when he saw no anti gun signs he went to the next theator. The fourth theator had Colorado's version of 30.06. He knew CHL holders would abide by the law so that was his target.

Could you provide a source for that information?

[RHenriksen]

Something not shown on liberal TV news channels was that the Colorado shooter (Aurora) went to three other theators first and when he saw no anti gun signs he went to the next theator. The fourth theator had Colorado's version of 30.06. He knew CHL holders would abide by the law so that was his target.

Could you provide a source for that information?

I'm not Moby, but see if this meets your needs:

http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2012/08/s ... urora.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Divided Attention]

Then there is the BIG question in my mind... Who is going to pay for the reinforcements and additional securities at the schools? I work in schools, and the last couple years the budget cuts havee been HUGE. Class sizes increased, programs cut all over the place. Heck we have to hope we have enough in our budget for paper. The changes you are suggesting sound awesome! Especially since I am in the "front line" in my building. I just have huge concerns over funding.

There have been several instances where I wished my sidearm weren't inaccessible. It never ceases to amaze me the way "adults" will behave in the presence of children. We have locked down because of threatening phone calls, and called the PD for irate guardians many times. Not that any of these are call to use my weapon, but would like to be prepared in the event of escalation.

The doors are minimal, and we have to lock with a key from the outside/hallside. This takes time we might not have. It is scary, and I hope that things settle down a bit after the holidays. If you think prayer is not in schools, the moment of silence is filled with prayer at my school - it makes me proud. They may be silent, but they are obvious!

I pray everyday I never have to use my sidearm, and thankful that I have that option if need be.

[Dragonfighter]

<SNIP>
It has been reported that Adam Lanza had a recognized mental condition, diagnosed by psychiatrists. I would suggest that it would be reasonable to require all mental health providers to report to local law enforcement such conditions with recomendations regarding public safety issues such as violent tendancies, driving restrictions, and firearms ownership. Failure to do so, could result in civil and criminal penalties. Local law enforcement would then visit the individual and other members of the household and report to NCIC as appropriate. This approach would be similar to the current requirements to report bullet wounds, child abuse etc.

Just maybe such an approach would have caused Adam's mother to rethink her actions and saved lives.

Then you have the anti 2A psychiatrists that listen to a patient having insomnia and boom! A knock on the door from an overzealous LEO or ADA followed by a unilateral stripping of your second amendment rights without due process.

[terryg]

Focusing on mental health issues in response to Newtown is a mistake, in my view.
Chas.

Mr. Cotton,

I understand those concerns - everyone of them. But we do have a mental health care crisis in this country. And as much as it rubs the wrong way to libertarian leaning folks such as ourselves - it needs public funding very very badly as is an issue that impacts all of us. Texas is one of the worst states, but most are very bad.

The school systems are, in most cases, burdened with caring for young children with mental health issues - usually inadequately - until the turn 18 at which point they are dumped on society. Then the justice and prison systems then take over in a vicious cycle with no treatment that only creates a larger monster. All of this cost more $$$ in many cases than if adequate treatments were provided early on.

When the children are young, the parents are capable of physical restraint. But that only works until the kids become stronger than their aging parents.

Read this one account from a mother with no real options for her son: http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.ca/2 ... kable.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So I would respectfully disagree that focusing on mental health issues is a mistake. We just need to make sure the focus is on treatments more than access to guns.

[MeMelYup]

Good article. "Secured limited-access to school buildings" is very close to what guards go through when entering a
State Correctional facility. To do this to Elementry, Middle or high schools would be very wrong. Our children and teachers are not prison inmates. Are they going to contract security out to TSA? The better answer is b or c, a isn't within a mile of the ballpark.
"Secured limited-access to school buildings" how would they do a ball game?

[{TEX}Hawaii 99]

The problem is denial and in this regard I agree with Dave Grossman.

http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter ... is-denial/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I met Dave Grossman in 2011, nearly a year after he wrote Active Shooters in Schools: The enemy is denial

If you only read a portion of this article, focus on the external threat. What happened in Beslan, Russia in 2004 would change our country more so than 9/11.

If I could tackle every American and make them read one book to help them understand the terrorist’s plan, it would be Terror at Beslan  by John Giduck. Beslan was just a dress rehearsal for what they’re planning to do to the United States,” he said.

[ralewis]

A parrent with a CHLshould be allowed to carry .

I agree, but passing that is more difficult. I already drafted a bill that would put CHL's on the same footing as LEO's except for carrying in bars and carrying while intoxicated. It's in the hands of a Texas Senator who is deciding if he will file it. I would hope that the Newtown tragedy would greatly improve the changes that it will be filed.

Chas.

I thought about this the other day a lot. I have an 8 year old in school in a suburb of Austin. I'm sure there are a few dozen parents of children at our school at least who have CHL's. I can't imagine any of them not being willing to sit in the office or walk the halls for 4 hours every few weeks. This would be a completely FREE way to add a bit of incremental security/deterrence (I think it's essential to publicize that CHL parent-volunteers are at a school).

Our school has a program called WatchDogs already that is mostly for Dads to volunteer as playground monitors as well as other things. Seems this program can easily be expanded include to include CHL holders. I'd certainly be willing to attend additional training if needed or even be limited to administrative areas of the school unless there was a threat in order to appease parents who aren't comfortable with their kids around guns at all.

[JALLEN]

The problem is denial and in this regard I agree with Dave Grossman.

http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter ... is-denial/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I met Dave Grossman in 2011, nearly a year after he wrote Active Shooters in Schools: The enemy is denial

If you only read a portion of this article, focus on the external threat. What happened in Beslan, Russia in 2004 would change our country more so than 9/11.

If I could tackle every American and make them read one book to help them understand the terrorist’s plan, it would be Terror at Beslan  by John Giduck. Beslan was just a dress rehearsal for what they’re planning to do to the United States,” he said.

You might want to google the name "John Giduck" before you get all warm and fuzzy.

I see Grossman is lecturing here in California, and I hope to see him in person to ask about these things.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Then there is the BIG question in my mind... Who is going to pay for the reinforcements and additional securities at the schools?

Remember, my article offers two alternatives. That's going to be my position in Austin also.

Chas.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Focusing on mental health issues in response to Newtown is a mistake, in my view.
Chas.

Mr. Cotton,

I understand those concerns - everyone of them. But we do have a mental health care crisis in this country. And as much as it rubs the wrong way to libertarian leaning folks such as ourselves - it needs public funding very very badly as is an issue that impacts all of us. Texas is one of the worst states, but most are very bad.

The school systems are, in most cases, burdened with caring for young children with mental health issues - usually inadequately - until the turn 18 at which point they are dumped on society. Then the justice and prison systems then take over in a vicious cycle with no treatment that only creates a larger monster. All of this cost more $$$ in many cases than if adequate treatments were provided early on.

When the children are young, the parents are capable of physical restraint. But that only works until the kids become stronger than their aging parents.

Read this one account from a mother with no real options for her son: http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.ca/2 ... kable.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So I would respectfully disagree that focusing on mental health issues is a mistake. We just need to make sure the focus is on treatments more than access to guns.

I don't disagree with anything you've posted, but it has nothing to do with mass murders at schools. We could fund everything you have addressed, and Texas' version of Adam Lanza can still walk into a school and slaughter people.

Trying to pre-screen violent people will not work and will not provide any semblance of security for our schools. Evil people are going to continue to target so-called "gun free" zones, especially schools, so we must be ready to neutralize their assault. My preference is to allow teachers and staff to carry handguns, but failing that, then we must secure our campuses and the cost of that will be staggering.

Chas.