Well Here We Go

[The Annoyed Man]

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2 ... -shooting/

4:52 p.m: Ryan Lanza, 24, brother of gunman Adam Lanza, 20, tells authorities that his younger brother is autistic, or has Asperger syndrome and a “personality disorder.” Neighbors described the younger man to ABC as “odd” and displaying characteristics associated with obsessive-compulsive disorder.

Well there you go.... I had heard that he had some sort of emotional/mental handicap, but there were no further details at the time. That's why I wrote that he was "known to be 'not normal'" in my previous post.

I have an acquaintance whose wife is autistic with a diagnosis of Asberger's syndrome. I'm actually surprised that she's married because she is not a fully functioning adult....not really. For that matter, and not to make light of the situation, but I'm surprised that my acquaintance is still married to her because I find her to be impossible to relate to on anything more than a superficial level. The way she treats my friend makes me sometimes angry on his behalf, and I have to remember that A) it isn't any of my business, and B) it is her condition talking, not her. At her worst, my friend's wife literally kicks him and picks on him all the time, and sometimes throws things at him. And he can't get away from her when she's like that because she pursues him like she is possessed, chasing him from room to room, pounding on the door incessantly if he tries to seek shelter behind a closed door. She'll even chase him down the block, or jump in the car with him so he can't leave without her if she's not done picking on him. She's really obsessively lost in her behavior So it isn't that hard for me to believe that the shooter in Connecticut was driven by his Asberger's to do what he did.

I don't mean to imply that every person with Asberger's syndrome is always going to be a dangerous person, but everything I've seen about the disorder indicates that its sufferers have a propensity to inappropriate behavior and a VERY poor sense of boundaries. Another thing is that people with Asbergers are to an extent devoid of empathy for others, and that may explain the facility with which the shooter was able to keep shooting at little kids. I'm no clinician, but those are my impressions.

[Heartland Patriot]

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2 ... -shooting/

4:52 p.m: Ryan Lanza, 24, brother of gunman Adam Lanza, 20, tells authorities that his younger brother is autistic, or has Asperger syndrome and a “personality disorder.” Neighbors described the younger man to ABC as “odd” and displaying characteristics associated with obsessive-compulsive disorder.

Well there you go.... I had heard that he had some sort of emotional/mental handicap, but there were no further details at the time. That's why I wrote that he was "known to be 'not normal'" in my previous post.

I have an acquaintance whose wife is autistic with a diagnosis of Asberger's syndrome. I'm actually surprised that she's married because she is not a fully functioning adult....not really. For that matter, and not to make light of the situation, but I'm surprised that my acquaintance is still married to her because I find her to be impossible to relate to on anything more than a superficial level. The way she treats my friend makes me sometimes angry on his behalf, and I have to remember that A) it isn't any of my business, and B) it is her condition talking, not her. At her worst, my friend's wife literally kicks him and picks on him all the time, and sometimes throws things at him. And he can't get away from her when she's like that because she pursues him like she is possessed, chasing him from room to room, pounding on the door incessantly if he tries to seek shelter behind a closed door. She'll even chase him down the block, or jump in the car with him so he can't leave without her if she's not done picking on him. She's really obsessively lost in her behavior So it isn't that hard for me to believe that the shooter in Connecticut was driven by his Asberger's to do what he did.

I don't mean to imply that every person with Asberger's syndrome is always going to be a dangerous person, but everything I've seen about the disorder indicates that its sufferers have a propensity to inappropriate behavior and a VERY poor sense of boundaries. Another thing is that people with Asbergers are to an extent devoid of empathy for others, and that may explain the facility with which the shooter was able to keep shooting at little kids. I'm no clinician, but those are my impressions.

TAM, I went to my A&P school with a young man who has Asperger's...and he is a VERY smart guy...but when he "loses it", WOW. A total and complete lack of self-control, no matter the situation.

[The Annoyed Man]

I can tell you something I do not see yet, and that is something on the NRA website. Is that good news for us, or bad news? I will not be surprised to see the MSM to pick up on this before this is over.

Jim

This definitely ain't the time to proclaim the gun didn't do it. There will be plenty of opportunity to put forth that position in the days, months and years to come

The political left certainly hasn't wasted any time proclaiming the gun DID do it...

BLOOMBERG: OBAMA MUST TAKE 'IMMEDIATE ACTION' AGAINST GUNS
BOSTON MAYOR MENINO: TIME FOR 'NATIONAL POLICY ON GUNS'

And related....

News orgs circulate Facebook profile, photos of unconfirmed shooter.........problem is, they got the wrong guy.........again........

[The Annoyed Man]

TAM, I went to my A&P school with a young man who has Asperger's...and he is a VERY smart guy...but when he "loses it", WOW. A total and complete lack of self-control, no matter the situation.

I never thought she wasn't smart, but she certainly lacks the ability to perceive where she stops and another human being begins. And you're right....when she is out of control, it's KATIE BAR THE DOOR! I don't dare talk about my own life within her hearing because I know from painful experience, and from hearing the complaints of others, that she is categorically unable to resist blabbing other people's stuff all over the place, to anybody who will listen.......to the point that our church leadership has called her on it several times, and she still has no clue or understanding that it's not acceptable because she lacks all ability to discern boundaries.

[rwg3]

Both New Jersey and Connecticut have registration, and that didn't stop this crime. Furthermore, the guns were registered in the name of the shooter's mother.........and she was one of his victims. Registration is pointless. Equally pointless....the shooter was apparently known to be "not normal" before all this ever went down.[/quote]

I snipped out the part that I think really strikes to the root cause of this tragedy, that is the shambles that the mental health system is in our country. Along about 1972 we shifted from institutionalizing patients to treating them as outpatients. The reasons were many fold and including new drugs available for treating them, horror stories about abuse and neglect in the facilities, and the real bottom line, which was the bottom line. It is cheaper to treat the mentally ill in the community. One little teeny, tiny flaw to this strategy is that mental illness is hard to measure and harder to treat. It has a horrible compliance problem and the the monitoring of the ill is all but non-existant. Unless we find a reasonable way to insulate the rest of society from the potential of a mentally ill person suffering a break and committing a terrible act we will see this again. This should not be be about gun control. Earlier today in China a madman stabbed 22 schoolchildren and a teacher. It happens in all places and with all kinds of weapons. The root is the same, mental illness.
The devil is in the details and the arguements about a patients civil rights versus public safety are as long and nasty as some of our political dialogue. I surely don't have the answer, I have some personal feeings about it having worked in the field for some time. Let me just say that the current option I feel best about, is a CHL.

[GWE Chally]

The political left certainly hasn't wasted any time proclaiming the gun DID do it...

BLOOMBERG: OBAMA MUST TAKE 'IMMEDIATE ACTION' AGAINST GUNS
BOSTON MAYOR MENINO: TIME FOR 'NATIONAL POLICY ON GUNS'

I like the commentary after the quotes by Bloomberg and Menino....

[comp73]

Furthermore, the guns were registered in the name of the shooter's mother.........and she was one of his victims.

If this news is accurate, I hope she had a CHL. If the guns had been on her person, he wouldn't have been able to get at them. But of course, she couldn't have them in the school.

They anti's won't buy that argument for school carry, but maybe some people who don't yet have hard opinions would.

Though I know that there is a CHL program in Connecticut, it is very unlikely that woman had one. I really don't think it is very widespread in any northeastern state, minus perhaps Pennsylvania.

Really?

"Many Connecticut women agree with her, according to statistics provided by state police. The number of female gun owners in the state is on the rise – between January and June this year, 3,584 gun permits were issued to women."

"In Connecticut, 30,374 women own gun permits, according to data provided by state police "

Source: Hartford Courant July 9, 2012

Tornado,

You are required to get a permit to purchase a hand gun in CT. It specifically states that this is a permit to purchase only and does not allow the permit owner to conceal carry.

http://www.ct.gov/despp/cwp/view.asp?a= ... v_GID=2080" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mark

[Heartland Patriot]

Both New Jersey and Connecticut have registration, and that didn't stop this crime. Furthermore, the guns were registered in the name of the shooter's mother.........and she was one of his victims. Registration is pointless. Equally pointless....the shooter was apparently known to be "not normal" before all this ever went down.

I snipped out the part that I think really strikes to the root cause of this tragedy, that is the shambles that the mental health system is in our country. Along about 1972 we shifted from institutionalizing patients to treating them as outpatients. The reasons were many fold and including new drugs available for treating them, horror stories about abuse and neglect in the facilities, and the real bottom line, which was the bottom line. It is cheaper to treat the mentally ill in the community. One little teeny, tiny flaw to this strategy is that mental illness is hard to measure and harder to treat. It has a horrible compliance problem and the the monitoring of the ill is all but non-existant. Unless we find a reasonable way to insulate the rest of society from the potential of a mentally ill person suffering a break and committing a terrible act we will see this again. This should not be be about gun control. Earlier today in China a madman stabbed 22 schoolchildren and a teacher. It happens in all places and with all kinds of weapons. The root is the same, mental illness.
The devil is in the details and the arguements about a patients civil rights versus public safety are as long and nasty as some of our political dialogue. I surely don't have the answer, I have some personal feeings about it having worked in the field for some time. Let me just say that the current option I feel best about, is a CHL.

When I was a kid, I saw the movie "One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest" and it certainly had its impact on me. Now that I am older, I wonder how much was the truth and how much was emotional propaganda...

[Frankie]

Column: Gun-free zones provide false sense of security

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2 ... l/1770345/

[chasfm11]

TAM, you know that it doesn't matter what guy they tagged. The facts in a matter like this are never important. The goal is to seize the crisis for political ends.

I'm sick in my stomach thinking about those poor little kindergarden kids. I was a teacher and did part of my student teaching in a kindergarten class. I don't see how anyone could ever harm a child that age, let a lone a whole class of them.

But that is nothing to the revulsion that I feel for the likes of Michael Moore and Bloomburg for trying to make political points before the poor little kids have been been given a respectable funeral. There is a special place for people like that but forum rules prevent my vivid description of it.

[The Annoyed Man]

Both New Jersey and Connecticut have registration, and that didn't stop this crime. Furthermore, the guns were registered in the name of the shooter's mother.........and she was one of his victims. Registration is pointless. Equally pointless....the shooter was apparently known to be "not normal" before all this ever went down.

I snipped out the part that I think really strikes to the root cause of this tragedy, that is the shambles that the mental health system is in our country. Along about 1972 we shifted from institutionalizing patients to treating them as outpatients. The reasons were many fold and including new drugs available for treating them, horror stories about abuse and neglect in the facilities, and the real bottom line, which was the bottom line. It is cheaper to treat the mentally ill in the community. One little teeny, tiny flaw to this strategy is that mental illness is hard to measure and harder to treat. It has a horrible compliance problem and the the monitoring of the ill is all but non-existant. Unless we find a reasonable way to insulate the rest of society from the potential of a mentally ill person suffering a break and committing a terrible act we will see this again. This should not be be about gun control. Earlier today in China a madman stabbed 22 schoolchildren and a teacher. It happens in all places and with all kinds of weapons. The root is the same, mental illness.
The devil is in the details and the arguements about a patients civil rights versus public safety are as long and nasty as some of our political dialogue. I surely don't have the answer, I have some personal feeings about it having worked in the field for some time. Let me just say that the current option I feel best about, is a CHL.

When I was a kid, I saw the movie "One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest" and it certainly had its impact on me. Now that I am older, I wonder how much was the truth and how much was emotional propaganda...

I just wanted to clean up the "attributions" so that people might more easily follow who quoted whom, and what was said in that context. Carry on...

[rwg3]

[When I was a kid, I saw the movie "One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest" and it certainly had its impact on me. Now that I am older, I wonder how much was the truth and how much was emotional propaganda...[/quote]

like all stories there is some of both. Lobotomy was an accepted treatment method for a very long time. It became quite popular in the 30's and was still practiced into the 80's. It has a great following in the institutuional world where patients who were deemed uncompliant were given them to reduce their acting out. It was also given to young women there to reduce their interest in certain physical urges. With the advent of widespread psychiatric meds the surgery rate slowed and as patients rights became more recognized the practice has all nut stopped. I suspect that it is still practiced occasionally, but mostly it is now a chemical treatment.

[Oldgringo]

I can tell you something I do not see yet, and that is something on the NRA website. Is that good news for us, or bad news? I will not be surprised to see the MSM to pick up on this before this is over.

Jim

This definitely ain't the time to proclaim the gun didn't do it. There will be plenty of opportunity to put forth that position in the days, months and years to come

The political left certainly hasn't wasted any time proclaiming the gun DID do it...

No surprise there. Let 'em rant while our side prepares well informed and substantial debate material and marshalls forces and friends.

[Dragonfighter]

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2 ... -shooting/

4:52 p.m: Ryan Lanza, 24, brother of gunman Adam Lanza, 20, tells authorities that his younger brother is autistic, or has Asperger syndrome and a “personality disorder.” Neighbors described the younger man to ABC as “odd” and displaying characteristics associated with obsessive-compulsive disorder.

When are they going to defeat the pharmaceutical lobby and start revealing what's in these guys' medicine cabinets. We eventually heard about the Prozac and Ridilin in the medicine cabinets of the Columbine, Wedgwood Baptist, and Luby's shooters. Now the antidepressants and anxiety meds come with label warnings and disclaimers ostensibly to alert the user or their family of the possible suicidal/homicidal breaks. But this information which used to come out fairly quickly is now all but eradicated from the dialogue.

It's not a gun problem, it is an evil problem in an increasingly amoral society, exacerbated by pharmaceuticals.

[The Annoyed Man]

When I was a kid, I saw the movie "One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest" and it certainly had its impact on me. Now that I am older, I wonder how much was the truth and how much was emotional propaganda...

like all stories there is some of both. Lobotomy was an accepted treatment method for a very long time. It became quite popular in the 30's and was still practiced into the 80's. It has a great following in the institutuional world where patients who were deemed uncompliant were given them to reduce their acting out. It was also given to young women there to reduce their interest in certain physical urges. With the advent of widespread psychiatric meds the surgery rate slowed and as patients rights became more recognized the practice has all nut stopped. I suspect that it is still practiced occasionally, but mostly it is now a chemical treatment.

The problem is that, treatment techniques aside, the court orders which resulted in the mass releasing of the mentally ill from institutionalization back into the general population about doubled or more the homeless population. I don't recall the case citation or details, but from memory there was an ACLU case on behalf of those who had been institutionalized but were deemed not to be a danger to anyone. The problem of course is that many of those same cannot be relied on to A) get their prescriptions refilled, and B) even take their medications which keep them functioning if there isn't an adult supervisor present to make sure that they do it.

So, even without visiting the libertarian argument about whether or not the state has any business institutionalizing someone who hasn't yet been adjudicated as dangerous to themselves or someone else, there is still a basic humanitarian question to be answered. One measure of a civilized society is the extent and quality of the care it provides to the mentally incompetent. But Autism and Asbergers present a dilemma for the mental health professional. Temple Grandin is an example of a highly functioning and productive member of society who is very much affected by Autism. Whether one thinks of her as a genius or a nutburger, she's at least not a net drain on society. Her books make her a productive citizen if nothing else. But all the same, there is no denying her Autism. Again, I'm no clinician, but what I have observed (and only what I have observed) about the specific subset of Autistics known as having Asbergers is that they can be particularly difficult exactly because they can also be functioning at a very high order.

I suppose that absent any state mandate for institutionalization, then it falls, fairly or not, on the shoulders of the affected person's family to make sure that their needs are met and that they pose no threat to the public. Unfortunately, not everyone is emotionally or financially equipped for the demands that this will place on them. This tragic shooting in part flows out of that.