Interesting Bass Hall Sign

[polekitty]

Went to Bass Hall for the first time Wednesday evening to listen to my grand daughter sing in her choir and saw this sign. I didn't see any 30.06 or 51% signs, just this one.

[Rex B]

Nice sign.
Ain't skeert

Been there, carried

[Keith B]

I think they were trying to make their own version of a 51% sign, but it is not a legal sign because there is no large red 51 on it. As a note, Bass Performance Hall IS a 51% location due to the liquor license being issued to a vendor and the vendor makes more than 51% of their revenue from alcohol sales. This makes the whole address off limits.

[Rex B]

Keith, thanks for that info. I had no idea liquor sales exceeded ticket proceeds.
I wonder why the TABC does not make them post correct signs?

[Jaguar]

I think they were trying to make their own version of a 51% sign, but it is not a legal sign because there is no large red 51 on it. As a note, Bass Performance Hall IS a 51% location due to the liquor license being issued to a vendor and the vendor makes more than 51% of their revenue from alcohol sales. This makes the whole address off limits.

Yep, since they contract the alcohol sales out to a vender and the vender makes more than 51% (because they don't count the ticket sales for the vendor), it is a red sign. TABC should enforce the signage though.

ETA: Since it is not a legal 51% sign, it provides a defense to prosecution.

License #: MB492323
Trade Name: ARTS AMENITIES INC.
Owner: ARTS AMENITIES INC.
Location Address: 330 E 4TH STREET
FORT WORTH , TX 761024021
Mailing Address: 330 E 4TH ST
FORT WORTH , TX 76102
County: Tarrant Orig. Issue Date: 5/3/2001
Status: Current Exp. Date: 5/2/2013
Wine Percent:
Location Phone No.: 8172124308
Subordinates: CB,LB,PE
Related To: Gun Sign: RED

[polekitty]

So if you attend an event and there are no acohol sales at the event, is it legal to CC?

[Jaguar]

So if you attend an event and there are no acohol sales at the event, is it legal to CC?

I would say no, the premises is off limits for CHL. If you do carry and get arrested, your lawyer would have an "out" for you because they do not have the correct sign posted, but lawyers cost money so make your own decision, I don't have that kind of cash.

[polekitty]

Nor do I. Thanks.

[Jaguar]

For the record, I do not believe the method Bass Hall is employing to keep out CHL holders is “right”. It is obvious ticket sales are way more than 51% of alcohol sales at the location, but since they have someone else come in to sell alcohol, and that someone else only sells alcohol, that vendor gets to specify the gun sign for the entire building. It wouldn’t be so bad if the bar areas were posted, but TABC doesn’t do it that way.

I would like to see this fixed in future legislative sessions, but I would like to see all 51% signs become meaningless, carrying while intoxicated should be a crime, carrying where intoxicants are served should not matter, regardless the percent of alcohol revenue generated at the location. I have been to Bass Hall for concerts and plays, and it is a wonderful venue, the Fort Worth Symphony Orchestra is outstanding, and at no time did I drink any alcohol nor did I see anyone who appeared to be intoxicated.

Silly rule, with even sillier loopholes to keep out the CHL crowd.

[A-R]

For the record, I do not believe the method Bass Hall is employing to keep out CHL holders is “right”. It is obvious ticket sales are way more than 51% of alcohol sales at the location, but since they have someone else come in to sell alcohol, and that someone else only sells alcohol, that vendor gets to specify the gun sign for the entire building. It wouldn’t be so bad if the bar areas were posted, but TABC doesn’t do it that way.

I would like to see this fixed in future legislative sessions, but I would like to see all 51% signs become meaningless, carrying while intoxicated should be a crime, carrying where intoxicants are served should not matter, regardless the percent of alcohol revenue generated at the location. I have been to Bass Hall for concerts and plays, and it is a wonderful venue, the Fort Worth Symphony Orchestra is outstanding, and at no time did I drink any alcohol nor did I see anyone who appeared to be intoxicated.

Silly rule, with even sillier loopholes to keep out the CHL crowd.

... with every word you wrote.

This use of 51% rules goes beyond the intent of the law

[Ark03]

ETA: Since it is not a legal 51% sign, it provides a defense to prosecution.

If you do carry and get arrested, your lawyer would have an "out" for you because they do not have the correct sign posted ...

I'm no lawyer, but in my CHL class, we specifically went over this - we were told that an incorrect or missing 51% sign is not a defense to prosecution if a reasonable person should know that it is a 51% establishment from either incorrect signage or because it is a bar or something like that.

I sure wouldn't want to be an expensive test case for it.

[Jaguar]

ETA: Since it is not a legal 51% sign, it provides a defense to prosecution.

If you do carry and get arrested, your lawyer would have an "out" for you because they do not have the correct sign posted ...

I'm no lawyer, but in my CHL class, we specifically went over this - we were told that an incorrect or missing 51% sign is not a defense to prosecution if a reasonable person should know that it is a 51% establishment from either incorrect signage or because it is a bar or something like that.

I sure wouldn't want to be an expensive test case for it.

The law clearly says it is a defense to prosecution.

PC §46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
(k) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (b)(1) that the actor was not given effective notice under Section 411.204, Government Code.

GC §411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES.
(a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the business premises a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c).
(c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must give notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a person licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the premises. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height and must include on its face the number “51” printed in solid red at least five inches in height. The sign shall be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

But I agree, I would not want pay a lawyer to explain what is plainly written in the law.

[Ark03]

Thanks! It appears I need to amend my class notes.

[Jaguar]

ETA: Since it is not a legal 51% sign, it provides a defense to prosecution.

If you do carry and get arrested, your lawyer would have an "out" for you because they do not have the correct sign posted ...

I'm no lawyer, but in my CHL class, we specifically went over this - we were told that an incorrect or missing 51% sign is not a defense to prosecution if a reasonable person should know that it is a 51% establishment from either incorrect signage or because it is a bar or something like that.

I sure wouldn't want to be an expensive test case for it.

We are talking about Bass Performance Hall, I would have never known it was a 51% location unless I had seen this thread and researched the TABC website. Had I not seen this thread, I would have walked past the incorrect sign in a heartbeat without looking twice and never considered it more than a poor attempt at legal signage. Also, I thought Bass Hall was on Commerce Street, not until I did some Google Fu did I find the address to be E 4th Street, I only looked on the TABC website for Commerce and found nothing, but the fact that there wasn’t even a Blue Sign for the address tipped me off.

I guess I need to get the TABC involved, they are paid to make sure these things don’t go unresolved. I would hate to hear that someone got arrested when all it would take is proper signs to warn the carrying public.

[Keith B]

ETA: Since it is not a legal 51% sign, it provides a defense to prosecution.

If you do carry and get arrested, your lawyer would have an "out" for you because they do not have the correct sign posted ...

I'm no lawyer, but in my CHL class, we specifically went over this - we were told that an incorrect or missing 51% sign is not a defense to prosecution if a reasonable person should know that it is a 51% establishment from either incorrect signage or because it is a bar or something like that.

I sure wouldn't want to be an expensive test case for it.

We are talking about Bass Performance Hall, I would have never known it was a 51% location unless I had seen this thread and researched the TABC website. Had I not seen this thread, I would have walked past the incorrect sign in a heartbeat without looking twice and never considered it more than a poor attempt at legal signage. Also, I thought Bass Hall was on Commerce Street, not until I did some Google Fu did I find the address to be E 4th Street, I only looked on the TABC website for Commerce and found nothing, but the fact that there wasn’t even a Blue Sign for the address tipped me off.

I guess I need to get the TABC involved, they are paid to make sure these things don’t go unresolved. I would hate to hear that someone got arrested when all it would take is proper signs to warn the carrying public.

It is appropriate for them to make their own 51% signs, but they MUST have the red 51% in there and the right size. Contacting the TABC would be the right thing to do so they will post the appropriate sign. These are one of those venues that can get you into trouble very easily as you would assume they would NOT be a 51% premise.