Beams, beams, beams

[packina45]

I'm a product tech support specialist for a major firearms and sporting goods distributor. Want to know how I spend a lot of my time at work?

Talking people out of putting lasers on defensive handguns.

Everyone thinks they gotta have the beams.

So, for those thinking about a laser, consider this. First of all, there is no beam, unless you're in a dusty room (or just popped a flash-bang and filled the room with smoke. Are you on a tactical entry team?) There's no magic beam. There's just a point on the target. Unless the target is scanning and looking for you in the dark room. Then the bright red or green light on the end of your weapon just gave away your position.

Secondly, once you dangle a laser off your oh-so-tactical handgun rail, you just narrowed down your concealable holster selection field by a factor of 100 or more. Suddenly, there's not a holster that fits your carry weapon. No holster, no carry, what good is your plastic now?

And third, when the zombies arise and we reach TEOTWAWKI (I'm tongue in cheek here guys) ... where ya gonna find a battery? More importantly, what will you do when you NEED that laser, and your battery is past its use-by date?

FUNDAMENTALS, people. Sight picture, squeeze, trigger reset. Repeat as needed until the threat stops. Breathe. Look for another threat. Muscle memory. Practice, practice, practice. Because when it is you on the line in a no-kidding life or death situation, and the lizard-brain fight-or-flight reflex kicks in, the first thing you'll lose is fine motor control. You wouldn't be able to insert a key into a lock, you think you'll remember how to turn your laser on?

Spend your laser money on range ammo and range fees. FUNDAMENTALS. They'll save your life. Gadgets won't.

Feel free to disagree...

[Skiprr]

I'm a product tech support specialist for a major firearms and sporting goods distributor. Want to know how I spend a lot of my time at work?

Talking people out of putting lasers on defensive handguns.

Might lasers have a purpose for some people? Possibly.

Should we all rush out and buy rail-mounted lasers? I don't think so.

My preference with a flashlight and handgun is the Harries technique. Gonna be difficult to convince me otherwise...

[TexasGal]

Whats wrong with the best of both worlds? Practice without the laser. It should never be a crutch or the primary sighting method. However, in self defense situations where it is difficult to sight the weapon well, there is a place for the assistance of that bright red dot. I don't recall ever caring whether I see the "beam" of the laser though the air.

[Lonest4r]

Lasers are not without their advantages. Sure a laser can limit the potential holster choices if that laser is affixed to the rail, but if it is the Crimson Trace style that is integrated into the grip of the pistol this is hardly limiting the holster selection. Even with a laser that attaches to the rail of a pistol I can find plenty of custom holsters on the market.
Secondly, the laser dot aids in the practice of firing from the hip, which is a likely scenario in the event an aggressor surprises you and is in very close proximity. It also aids in low light scenarios where conventional sights may not be readily acquired.
That dot can also be used to keep your noggin and other vital body parts behind cover. If you are taking cover behind an object you can use the laser dot to aim without lining your head up behind the gun and exposing it. This would enable you to use small hole/reflection/gap in cover to aim the gun while exposing only your hand.
Lastly, even with a laser sight device attached to a CCW the primary sights are still the ones built onto the gun. If batteries die, finish the firefight and either replace the batteries or chunk the laser to reduce weight (TEOTWAWKI).

[MadMonkey]

I've had lots of lasers... but only one was weapon mounted.

The rest I took to the skating rink so I could make little kids lose concentration and fall down. Yes, I was young, and a jerk...

[packina45]

Lasers are not without their advantages. Sure a laser can limit the potential holster choices if that laser is affixed to the rail, but if it is the Crimson Trace style that is integrated into the grip of the pistol this is hardly limiting the holster selection. Even with a laser that attaches to the rail of a pistol I can find plenty of custom holsters on the market.

Sure, you can get custom holsters. I carry my full-size XD in a non-off-shelf holster. But the average person will spend $600 on a handgun and then want the cheapest holster (and laser) they can possibly buy. You think I'm joking? Had a customer last week that spend in excess of $1700 on a Colt AR-15 TALO edition with MagPul everything, and wanted a "good red dot sight under $50" to put on it.

Secondly, the laser dot aids in the practice of firing from the hip, which is a likely scenario in the event an aggressor surprises you and is in very close proximity.

So does range practice at three yards or less. MUSCLE MEMORY is the key.

Lastly, even with a laser sight device attached to a CCW the primary sights are still the ones built onto the gun. If batteries die, finish the firefight and either replace the batteries or chunk the laser to reduce weight (TEOTWAWKI).

Unfortunately, the average laser buyer doesn't see it that way. They want the laser to compensate for their inability to USE the sights on the weapon. They just want to see the dot and pull the trigger.

[G.A. Heath]

Lasers, night sights, flashlights, and other gadgets do have a place on a defensive firearm in my opinion. I don't think that the beam is a real issue, its the end points that I am interested in. Like all defensive tools these tools require training in order to use properly and to their full potential. About 5% of my practice time is done with using the laser, in order to ensure that I can use it if I need to. The rest of my practice time is for other stuff like the basics, and more advanced skills that I do not want to loose. Rather than try to talk people out of a laser, ask them why they want one, poor eyesight would be a good reason. Also suggest that the customer get training on how to use said laser.

Regarding hanging a laser off the rail on a handgun. Not all lasers need a rail, Crimson trace products come to mind as does lasermax's guid rod setup. As far as batteries go, unless you leave it on all the time they tend to last a while. I replace my CTC lasers batteries every year, even though they illuminate the device plenty well, and I check the laser's function everytime I press check the pistol (At least once a day). As far as holsters go, any of the true custom shops should support popular handguns with popular lasers.

Anyone who considers a laser equiped firearm should consider the training to utilize it properly. The point you make about not being able to turn a laser on under stress is the same point people try to make about safeties, training will overcome that. Instinctive activation such as CTC incorporates will overcome that as well. As far as giving your position away, the muzzle flash will do that too and unless the threat is down range from the laser they probably won't see it. Seeing as how gadgets won't save your life I guess a gun won't help either, oh well I'm a caveman at heart so its back to the concealed club license for me (But even that is a gadget too).

[packina45]

Regarding hanging a laser off the rail on a handgun. Not all lasers need a rail, Crimson trace products come to mind as does lasermax's guid rod setup. As far as batteries go, unless you leave it on all the time they tend to last a while. I replace my CTC lasers batteries every year, even though they illuminate the device plenty well, and I check the laser's function everytime I press check the pistol (At least once a day). As far as holsters go, any of the true custom shops should support popular handguns with popular lasers.

See above. CTC and Lasermax are expensive. The average laser buyer I deal with wants to spend under fifty to seventy-five bucks. You wouldn't believe the number of Leapers UTG and Barska lasers we sell.

[n5wd]

Regarding hanging a laser off the rail on a handgun. Not all lasers need a rail, Crimson trace products come to mind as does lasermax's guid rod setup. As far as batteries go, unless you leave it on all the time they tend to last a while. I replace my CTC lasers batteries every year, even though they illuminate the device plenty well, and I check the laser's function everytime I press check the pistol (At least once a day). As far as holsters go, any of the true custom shops should support popular handguns with popular lasers.

See above. CTC and Lasermax are expensive. The average laser buyer I deal with wants to spend under fifty to seventy-five bucks. You wouldn't believe the number of Leapers UTG and Barska lasers we sell.

Oh, so it's just the cheap lasers that you're railing against? If I walked into your shop and wanted a Viridian C5L, would you want to talk me out of it?

Lasers have their place. They're an accessory that, when used properly, can mean the difference between an effectively placed shot and one that's not. They're not a magic bullet, and if you don't want one on your full sized XD, then don't put one on just to be like the Joneses. I've worked enough deep nights and trashed up houses/buildings in the world to realize that you don't throw away a tool that you might need one day. Heck, I hope I never have to use my weapon in a self-defense situation again as long as I live (a year and a bit in Vietnam crossed that little thing off my checklist a long time ago), but that doesn't mean that I don't want my weapon to be there in case I DO need it.

[packina45]

Oh, so it's just the cheap lasers that you're railing against? If I walked into your shop and wanted a Viridian C5L, would you want to talk me out of it?

You miss the point entirely. Sure, lasers can have their place. I don't happen to think a handgun is one of them, but we're each entitled to our own opinion on that.

The POINT of the discussion is that the TYPICAL, untrained laser buyer is doing so to compensate for his lack of fundamentals. Would you ride a hunter-jumper through a hunt course your first time on a horse? Attempt to repair a nuclear reactor with minimal tools and no mechanical ability? Drive in rush-hour traffic your first time behind the wheel?

When teaching a child to shoot, do you rush out and buy them a 10/22 with a 3x9 scope and a laser on it? Or do you get them a single-shot, bolt-action Cricket?

Fundamentals first. That's all I'm sayin'. If you can't use the sights on your weapon, that's where you need to start. Spend that laser money on range ammo.

[packina45]

I'm a product tech support specialist for a major firearms and sporting goods distributor. Want to know how I spend a lot of my time at work?

Talking people out of putting lasers on defensive handguns.

Might lasers have a purpose for some people? Possibly.

Should we all rush out and buy rail-mounted lasers? I don't think so.

My preference with a flashlight and handgun is the Harries technique. Gonna be difficult to convince me otherwise...

[Salty1]

Many good points are made on this topic, one that may have ben missed is that many guns are not truly functional at certain ranges due to the lack of proper sights. The LCP comes to mind, how many people would be willing to take a 50 foot shot with an LCP? A laser would make the shot much more predictable and the ability to hit the target more sucessful. I think back to Luby's and if some madman was running around I would want any advantage I could have and a laser would be one of them. As mentioned first and foremost you need to actually know how to shoot your gun with the sights and be accurate with it, most do not practice nearly enough nor do they actually draw and shoot in a controlled rapid fire scenerio. Personally I would never carry a gun that has a laser attached to a rail, but to each their own. I do have a 357 LCR with CT grips which enhance the capability and distance of a snubby revolver....

[Salty1]

When teaching a child to shoot, do you rush out and buy them a 10/22 with a 3x9 scope and a laser on it? Or do you get them a single-shot, bolt-action Cricket?

I would go buy them a 10/22 as a first rifle and teach them to shoot with iron sights one shot at a time, but thats just me.............

[Jim Beaux]

Basics first.

It's been my experience that once the basics are mastered a laser can be effective for some, but if the shooter has bad form he is gonna pull the laser off target.

I dont use a laser, but I think it could help me more than the average shooter - as I wear 30 day, night and day, mono vision contacts. http://www.airoptix.com/ I never take them out when sleeping. I love the contacts as I dont need to keep up with reading glasses, but they do exact a compromise.

The downside of monovision is that some people find it compromises the clarity of their distance vision too much, making distant objects appear slightly blurred. Others find monovision doesn't provide adequate near vision to give them the freedom from reading glasses they were hoping for.--http://www.allaboutvision.com/contacts/monovision.htm

This can take a lot of getting use to when lining up and target acquisition. It also hampers one's depth perception. Wearing monovision I will never be a great marksman, but I can get a decent grouping if I stay in practice (Ruger LC9) Also upon wakening, and when my contacts are extra dirty, everything is blurry & it takes a few minutes to clear. If I had a late night visitor a laser could be a big help.

BTW Any optometrist will tell you best practice is to take your contacts out every night and clean them....but rules are for sissies, I wear em until I cant see!

[Abraham]

I've always thought trying to find/hold the skittering laser dot would provide ample time for a criminal to drop you with his IRON sights...frankly, if I'm going to bolt a gadget on my pistol it'll be a Pez dispenser.