New Traveling Law
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Okay guys, GROUP HUG!!
I can't claim to be the lone voice in the wilderness on this side of the HB823 issue. The NRA general counsel has the same opinion, as do two attorneys from a very famous criminal defense firm in Houston, with whom I spoke yesterday. I'm sure there are others, but these are the folks with whom I have spoken. Admittedly, there is at least one attorney of whom I am aware that disagrees with my interpretation.
Let me also say that being "right" in interpreting a statute doesn't mean the appellate courts are going to agree. There is an old saying in the law, "bad facts make bad law." This simply means that a dirt-bag defendant who may be a despicable character, but who also meets the five elements of the traveling presumption, is not the defendant we want to see take this issue to through the appellate courts. We want a kindly grandmother on her way to do charity work. If the dirt-bag gets there first, these "bad facts" may well result in a court that absolutely will not let this guy off, and they write "bad law" to get the desired result.
I think the provisions of HB823 are clear; I think the requirements for taking an issue away from a jury are clear to attorneys; so I think HB823 should and will achieve the goal of allowing people to carry handguns in their cars, if they meet the elements of the traveling presumption. Is this a guarantee? Absolutely not. I continue to recommend a CHL for two reasons. First, to avoid the ride through the system to prove you are right. Secondly, as hard as it may be to believe, some darn judge may not agree with me.
On more than one occasion, I have had a judge respond to case law I offer by saying something to the effect that "that may be the law down the street (1st or 14th Courts of Appeals) or in Austin (Supreme Court), but not in my court." Surprisingly, this is not a rare occurrence, so I won't guarantee anything. However, I firmly believe that any intellectually honest judge will have to rule that the presumption can only be rebutted by disproving one of the five required elements.
As to the club and knife issue, Renegade is correct in that the presumption seems at first blush to potentially exempt anyone carrying a handgun from all of 46.02. However, as he also noted from another of my posts, Tex. Penal Code §1.05, expressly states “(a) The rule that a penal statute is to be strictly construed does not apply to this code. The provisions of this code shall be construed according to the fair import of their terms, to promote justice and effect the objectives of the code.� Since elements 3 and 5 of the presumption deal with firearms and handguns, respectively, and since the entire Legislative history of HB823 shows Legislative intent to have been to allow carrying of handguns in cars, §1.05 will likely operate to limit the exemption from §46.02 to handguns.
I don’t like §1.05, I think it’s dangerous, violates centuries of judicial wisdom and decisions, but it’s the law, until and unless it’s challenged in the U.S. Supreme Court. (Maybe it has been, I don’t know.) This opinion has nothing to do with a desire to carry a club or an illegal knife, I just don’t like §1.05. Anyway, I don’t know how to fight with a knife and I’m too old to be swing a club for very long!
We've had some fun with this discussion, but I want to say in all sincerity that I understand the opposing argument and I believe this is an issue on which reasonable minds can differ.
Okay, break from the group hug.
Regards,
Chas.
I can't claim to be the lone voice in the wilderness on this side of the HB823 issue. The NRA general counsel has the same opinion, as do two attorneys from a very famous criminal defense firm in Houston, with whom I spoke yesterday. I'm sure there are others, but these are the folks with whom I have spoken. Admittedly, there is at least one attorney of whom I am aware that disagrees with my interpretation.
Let me also say that being "right" in interpreting a statute doesn't mean the appellate courts are going to agree. There is an old saying in the law, "bad facts make bad law." This simply means that a dirt-bag defendant who may be a despicable character, but who also meets the five elements of the traveling presumption, is not the defendant we want to see take this issue to through the appellate courts. We want a kindly grandmother on her way to do charity work. If the dirt-bag gets there first, these "bad facts" may well result in a court that absolutely will not let this guy off, and they write "bad law" to get the desired result.
I think the provisions of HB823 are clear; I think the requirements for taking an issue away from a jury are clear to attorneys; so I think HB823 should and will achieve the goal of allowing people to carry handguns in their cars, if they meet the elements of the traveling presumption. Is this a guarantee? Absolutely not. I continue to recommend a CHL for two reasons. First, to avoid the ride through the system to prove you are right. Secondly, as hard as it may be to believe, some darn judge may not agree with me.
On more than one occasion, I have had a judge respond to case law I offer by saying something to the effect that "that may be the law down the street (1st or 14th Courts of Appeals) or in Austin (Supreme Court), but not in my court." Surprisingly, this is not a rare occurrence, so I won't guarantee anything. However, I firmly believe that any intellectually honest judge will have to rule that the presumption can only be rebutted by disproving one of the five required elements.
As to the club and knife issue, Renegade is correct in that the presumption seems at first blush to potentially exempt anyone carrying a handgun from all of 46.02. However, as he also noted from another of my posts, Tex. Penal Code §1.05, expressly states “(a) The rule that a penal statute is to be strictly construed does not apply to this code. The provisions of this code shall be construed according to the fair import of their terms, to promote justice and effect the objectives of the code.� Since elements 3 and 5 of the presumption deal with firearms and handguns, respectively, and since the entire Legislative history of HB823 shows Legislative intent to have been to allow carrying of handguns in cars, §1.05 will likely operate to limit the exemption from §46.02 to handguns.
I don’t like §1.05, I think it’s dangerous, violates centuries of judicial wisdom and decisions, but it’s the law, until and unless it’s challenged in the U.S. Supreme Court. (Maybe it has been, I don’t know.) This opinion has nothing to do with a desire to carry a club or an illegal knife, I just don’t like §1.05. Anyway, I don’t know how to fight with a knife and I’m too old to be swing a club for very long!
We've had some fun with this discussion, but I want to say in all sincerity that I understand the opposing argument and I believe this is an issue on which reasonable minds can differ.
Okay, break from the group hug.
Regards,
Chas.
When I say "you", i'm refering to people in general. As I said before, it's a free country, people can do what they please. When a state rep who helped with the laws advice is to NOT carry while driving around town, and ONLY carry when actually traveling, that's says something to me.orc4hire wrote:EricS76 wrote:It seems to me that some people want to make this new law complicated, or form it somehow to fit their needs. When you strip it all down, it's very simple.
We should all be able to agree that the law revolves around traveling. Ask yourself "am I traveling when I go to the grocery store 10 blocks from my house?" No, I'm not traveling. "Am I traveling when I take my kids to football practice?" No, I'm not traveling. We all know when we're traveling and when we are not. Some people wish to stretch the law to cover more things, and yes, it may be possible to get away with it. But you know when you're traveling and when you are not. If you feel the need to carry a handgun in your vehicle all the time, you'd be much better advised to get a CHL and stop argueing this law or trying to stretch it to suit your needs.
Yes, that is where it gets complicated. When people try to define traveling, as it applies to this law, as something other than how the law itself defines it.
By the way, what makes you think I DON'T have a CHL?
Representative Suzanna Hupp jointly authored HB823. I would assume she would be fairly knowledgeable about the contents and ramifications of this piece of legislation.orc4hire wrote:Legislators, of course, being famously knowledgeable about the contents and remifications of the legislation they vote for.
http://www.house.state.tx.us/members/dist54/hupp.htm
With that, I'll just leave it as you have your opinion on this law, and I have mine. Looks like we'll have to wait to see how it all irons out in the real world.
Ok, you're right. I'm sure she signed her name on a piece of legislation she knows nothing about. I'm sure she also gave advice to people she represents without any knowledge of the contents or ramifications of it either.orc4hire wrote:EricS76 wrote:I would assume she would be fairly knowledgeable about the contents and ramifications of this piece of legislation.
Would you? You're a giddy optimist.
She was the last of four 'joint authors' and signed on 20 days after the legislation was filed by the original author.
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EricS76 wrote:It seems to me that some people want to make this new law complicated, or form it somehow to fit their needs. When you strip it all down, it's very simple.
We should all be able to agree that the law revolves around traveling. Ask yourself "am I traveling when I go to the grocery store 10 blocks from my house?" No, I'm not traveling. "Am I traveling when I take my kids to football practice?" No, I'm not traveling. We all know when we're traveling and when we are not. Some people wish to stretch the law to cover more things, and yes, it may be possible to get away with it. But you know when you're traveling and when you are not. If you feel the need to carry a handgun in your vehicle all the time, you'd be much better advised to get a CHL and stop argueing this law or trying to stretch it to suit your needs.
Now your getting it. Lawyers make the laws and they do what they need to do to make money from these laws. It's no fun making a law everyone can understand.It seems to me that some people want to make this new law complicated, or form it somehow to fit their needs.
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Less than 50% of the Texas House and Texas Senate are attorneys. I think everyone is better served if people who will have to deal with legal issues in court on behalf of clients are the ones who write the bills that ultimately become law. Who better knows what language is needed to get the desired result? You wouldn't get an attorney to do the engineering on the space shuttle and you wouldn't get an accountant to perform your open-heart surgery. Why would you want your attorney to have to work with laws written by a car salesman?one eyed fatman wrote:Now your getting it. Lawyers make the laws and they do what they need to do to make money from these laws. It's no fun making a law everyone can understand.
As to simplicity, it often leaves too much room to differ, and that means more lawsuits. I see this often, when non-attorneys write their own contracts, then later find themselves in a dispute. Too many areas simply were not addressed.
Chairman Keel is an attorney and he wrote HB823. However, most bills are not written by their "authors" and certainly not their "co-authors." I've already posted on this subject, so I won't bore people by repeating it.
Regards,
Chas.
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I have been sitting back and reading this interesting thread where some people seem to be totally ignoring what others are saying while attempting to argue with those self same others about what they were saying, and notice I expressed that in the plural. No names, but Charles is exempted from consideration.Charles L. Cotton wrote:I think everyone is better served if people who will have to deal with legal issues in court on behalf of clients are the ones who write the bills that ultimately become law. Who better knows what language is needed to get the desired result? You wouldn't get an attorney to do the engineering on the space shuttle and you wouldn't get an accountant to perform your open-heart surgery. Why would you want your attorney to have to work with laws written by a car salesman?
As to simplicity, it often leaves too much room to differ, and that means more lawsuits. I see this often, when non-attorneys write their own contracts, then later find themselves in a dispute. Too many areas simply were not addressed.
Chairman Keel is an attorney and he wrote HB823. However, most bills are not written by their "authors" and certainly not their "co-authors." I've already posted on this subject, so I won't bore people by repeating it.
Regards,
Chas.
But now I have to throw my own two cents in and contribute to thread drift in the process.
Many years ago I was privileged to be among the select few to be allowed to work on the telephone systems in the NY State Legislature and Capitol, as such I had back door access to the legislative process, something I was interested in for a variety of reasons. A person that I fervently supported got elected to the legislature at that time, and one of his first acts was to submit a piece of legislation that had been proposed to him by the coalition of sportsmen's clubs that had backe his election.
He submitted, as every legislator did in those days, his "blue line" draft of the proposed legislation to the Assembly Bill Drafting Committee." This group, actually chaired by a senior assemblyman but staffed by attorneys wrote virtually all legislation that was presented in the Assembly of the NY State Legislature, and there was a similar bunch operating on the Senate side. It was not only rare for legislation not to be run through Bill Drafting before submission, but it was also common for bills that had not followed that path to be referred there for cleanup after submission. Texas does something similar with bills that must be submitted for an economic impact study before they can be considered.
What the bill drafters did with my legislator's proposed legislation wasn't real pretty. They warped the original meaning around so that an originally pro-gun bill came out anti-gun. Of course our legislator witthdrew the legislation from consideration after seeing the changes that I pointed out to him, and probably would have paid little attention to the language unless it was pointed out to him, and earned the enmity of the gun owners of his district because he reneged on his promise, caught in a real Catch-22.
Although I agree that I wouldn't take my car to my doctor or expect my mechanic to be able to reduce my dislocated shoulder, I feel a little differently about our legislatures. Our legislatures are designed to be composed of a cross section of the populace (although that may be impossibel to accomplish these days) not just professional legislators and it scares me when people say that laws should be written by lawyers. I think that part of the reason why some of our laws are confusing is because of the "legalese" language that means nothing to anyone BUT the lawyers. Indeed, how are we supposed to obey the laws if we don't even understand them?
There is some to be said for attorneys doing sanity check on bills to see that all bases are covered, or that unintended consequences are pointed out, but I am uncomfortable with your statement, Charles, that attorneys should write the laws because they have to deal with them and understand the language. Laws should be written so that everyone, with certain exceptions (a reasonable person test?) understands them and if that makes it a little hard on the attorneys (although why it should I can't imagine) then maybe they need to consider a career change.
Not meant to be confrontational, just attempting to share an opposing viewpoint. I do, heartily, agree about non-attorneys writing their own contracts, been in the middle of one of those and don't want to do it again.
Real gun control, carrying 24/7/365
Exactly. When laws written in ordinary English are twisted to not mean exactly what they say, how can you expect anyone to abide by them?jimlongley wrote:It scares me when people say that laws should be written by lawyers. I think that part of the reason why some of our laws are confusing is because of the "legalese" language that means nothing to anyone BUT the lawyers. Indeed, how are we supposed to obey the laws if we don't even understand them?