Man killed after bumping Metro bus passenger

[Lucky45]

05:20 PM CDT on Wednesday, March 28, 2007

By Jason Whitely / KHOU 11 News

Man shot, killed on Metro bus

City bus riders heading in to Houston witnessed the unthinkable. “We saw this big light and this big pop. My ears are still ringing,� said Gwen Guidry.

She’s a nurse who was on her way to work at Methodist Hospital.

Police say they think a young white man, who just boarded, gunned down a fellow rider.

“The suspect was on his making his way through the center aisle when he brushed up against the victim,� said Captain Dwayne Ready with the Houston Police Department.

“The guy bumped him,� said Effrom Mooring who was on the bus. “They exchanged words. The guy pulled out a gun and shot him. Just for bumping him.�

The victim, who was shot once in the chest, was an older African-American man.

Troy Andrews’ wife was on the bus. “He was gasping for air and there’s no way she (Gwen Guidry) could help him.�

The victim walked to the front of the bus and collapsed before dying in the doorway.

“I tried to revive him. I did what I could. But it wasn’t happening,� said Guidry.

Witnesses say the victim bumped the suspect and the two argued near the middle of the bus before the shooting.
The shooting happened about 11:45 Wednesday morning on Metro bus 3269 in west Houston.

“Everybody started ducking and hollering. He just put the gun back in his pants and politely walked to the back of the bus and sat down,� said Andrews.

Capt. Ready says they had no problem arresting the gunman. “The suspect at the time when officers arrived was at the back of the bus with his hands up and was taken into custody without further incident.�

“It’s crazy man. I don’t know why you shoot somebody because they bumped you. Say excuse me and that’ll be it. There’s no reason to kill anybody,� said Mooring.

None of the other 12 passengers on the bus was hurt.

Some did complain of chest pains and anxiety from bearing witness to a crime they can’t comprehend.

Many consider this a murder on Metro over something so insignificant.

The names of the suspect and victim have not been released.

Did race play a role seeing as the suspect is a young white man and the victim was an older black man?

HPD says it doesn’t think so from the words that were exchanged although they haven’t released the conversation publicly.

My question is as a CHL holder on board that bus, what would be your options.
1. Do you draw your weapons out of self defense, since you can't escape a moving crowded bus safely? Holding the suspect at gunpoint since you are in fear of your life since he MIGHT go beserk?

2. Sit and do nothing, hoping he is not desperate and not start shooting others?
2.

[Geister]

Here's option #3, Lucky:

3) Don't ride the bus in Houston

I think the #1 priority in self-defense is NOT carrying a firearm but keeping yourself away from locations in which you might have to use it.

[txinvestigator]

Where do some of ya'll get that "fear of your life" stuff?

[jimlongley]

#1 - if you could have drawn BEFORE the shooting took place, you MIGHT have been justified in doing so, but if the shooting was over and the shooter was exiting, you stand a good chance of getting in trouble. And there is another factor involved:

Years ago a man was arrested in another state for shooting a man running down a street. He had witnessed the man running form a house across the street followed closely by a woman, waving a knife, who he knew was the man's wife and who was screaming "You've killed him, you murderer!" over and over.

The witness grabbed a nearby gun and ran after the fleeing felon and shot him. He was charged and convicted, eventually, of Manslaughter.

Now the rest of the story - What had happened was the man. the husband, had never liked the woman's pet cat, he was allergic. One afternoon he wasa home alone and locked the cat in the bathroom where it, in an attempt to get a drink of water, slipped and fell into the commode and the seat and lid, which the man, in typical man fashion, fell on it, and it drowned. When the wife found the cat, which he hadn't noticed had expired, she lost her temper "a little" and chased him from the house waving the knife that she picked up on the way through the kitchen.

He thought he was fully justified in shooting a fleeing felon, and was very surprised when she ran up and said the same thing to him - "You've killed him, you murderer!"

So why the little tale? Do you know that the confrontation wasn't a case were the shooter was justified in using deadly force to defend himself? Would you be justified in drawing after the shooting if such was the case?

#2. - Sit there and get ready while being an excellent witness.

[zedsdead]

Here's option #3, Lucky:

3) Don't ride the bus in Houston

I think the #1 priority in self-defense is NOT carrying a firearm but keeping yourself away from locations in which you might have to use it.

I ride the bus daily. I've never seen any such threat before, I think this is a rare one-off event....

Although there was that time...

[KD5NRH]

#1 - if you could have drawn BEFORE the shooting took place, you MIGHT have been justified in doing so, but if the shooting was over and the shooter was exiting, you stand a good chance of getting in trouble.

Read it again; the shooter didn't exit. He stayed on the bus, still armed, and still in full view of the witnesses.

So why the little tale? Do you know that the confrontation wasn't a case were the shooter was justified in using deadly force to defend himself?

Young, armed male against older, unarmed male? I'd be hard pressed to find justification in that.

You might as well say that I shouldn't shoot back at a guy that's shooting at me because I might have unknowingly given him valid reason to do so.

[Lucky45]

I don't know why I post in this site because I can never take a real life incident (NOT FICTION) and try to have a discussion and analyze it from a CHL holder's perspective.

Thanks for the comments Jim, KD and everyone else.

txinvestigator wrote:
Where do some of ya'll get that "fear of your life" stuff?

I guess you chose number 2. Sitting in a bus with gun shots going off would not even be fazed or look around. Just looking for your stop.

I think the #1 priority in self-defense is NOT carrying a firearm but keeping yourself away from locations in which you might have to use it.

That is assuming that the need for self defense would not occur in the other regular locations that you go on a daily basis.
For those that don't use personal transportation for whatever reason, catching the bus is a regular activity. Some people get bus passes from work to ride MEtro, reimbursed, Park and Ride, etc. Riding Metro doesn't mean it is your main mode of transportation.

Some might say that this is a freak incident and they don't catch the bus ever. But look at last month, the Houston Rodeo was going on here. How many people rode the Metro to the stadium? It could have occured then also.
For those in other cities benefit, whenever they is a large event in Houston, most of the time Metro has a shuttle service to the event from several Park and Ride locations around Houston. And the events are not always held in an enclosed area like the Reliant Stadium and Center. So you can have people that are armed getting on the bus.

[KBCraig]

Where do some of ya'll get that "fear of your life" stuff?

Years of conditioning and gunshop lore that predates the CHL law. While "fear of (my) life" isn't required, such fear does support a reasonable person's belief that deadly force is reasonably required to prevent... blah blah blah.

But back to the bus incident: I heard on Texas radio news this evening, that the shooter had a snubbie .357. He fired a single shot, which went through the victim's left arm and into his chest. It was apparently a heart shot, since he died right there on the bus.

Now, that said... it has been said that the shooter pulled a gun in response to being "brushed" when he got on the bus. That doesn't play, because if he was the one getting on, he was the one doing any "brushing".

But then, a loud argument ensued. We don't know what was said, nor what threats were made. I think it extremely unlikely that the encounter justified deadly force in response, but you never know. Especially not from news reports. The shooter's response was interesting: he retreated from the conflict, and responded to the police with his hands in the air.

Doesn't look good for the shooter, but I wouldn't want to make a judgment on news reports alone.

Kevin

[txinvestigator]

I don't know why I post in this site because I can never take a real life incident (NOT FICTION) and try to have a discussion and analyze it from a CHL holder's perspective.

Thanks for the comments Jim, KD and everyone else.

txinvestigator wrote:
Where do some of ya'll get that "fear of your life" stuff?

I guess you chose number 2. Sitting in a bus with gun shots going off would not even be fazed or look around. Just looking for your stop.

You guess wrong. In fact, why would you assume my preference from asking the question I asked. I gave no reference as to what I would do or not do.

NO LAW justifies deadly force if " you are in fear of your life", nor can you arrest a person (holding them at gunpoint) because they "might" do something.



Any response should be made based on what you know to be true, not speculation.

[txinvestigator]

Where do some of ya'll get that "fear of your life" stuff?

Years of conditioning and gunshop lore that predates the CHL law. While "fear of (my) life" isn't required, such fear does support a reasonable person's belief that deadly force is reasonably required to prevent... blah blah blah.

Not necessarily. If Big JOE, the baddest person in the neighborhood who has a record for agg assault, murder, etc., tells you he is going to kill you tomorrow, you could reasonably be in "fear of your life", but you would not be justified in using deadly force at that moment. Mere fear is not sufficient.


"when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly
force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force," blah, blah.

[Geister]

No, I'm assuming from the times that I have actually been on public transportation, you are more likely to be mugged, robbed, or shot at than if you took other means of transportation, i.e. a private vehicle.

That is assuming that the need for self defense would not occur in the other regular locations that you go on a daily basis.
For those that don't use personal transportation for whatever reason, catching the bus is a regular activity. Some people get bus passes from work to ride MEtro, reimbursed, Park and Ride, etc. Riding Metro doesn't mean it is your main mode of transportation.

[jimlongley]

When the shooter put the gun back in his pocket and went and sat down, he was exiting the confrontation, even if still in the confines of the bus.

Only one shot was fired and it was for all intents over - no justification to draw.

As far as the age difference, my grandpappy taught me that old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill every time.

[Big Calhoun]

I'm also of the impression that this was just a random and terrible event. Granted, I've never used public transportation in Texas. Public transportation in New York and New Jersey can get just as hairy, but still, events like that are few are far between.

As to course of action, given the facts as they've been presented here, I would not have felt compelled to draw my weapon unless the shooter was continuing threatining behavior. Seeing how he walked to the back and took a seat, I would have felt comfortable just keeping on eye on him so I could point him out to the police.

[casselthief]

None of the other 12 passengers on the bus was hurt.

let's take a look at this. "None... was hurt."
really?
The English Language that far gone that journalists don't even have to learn it.

in that mode, I opine.

Wells, what I's be doings is duckin's mah headses as soon as thu gunses be goings offs. soundses to meh that thu suspect be puttin's thu gunses in his pantses, so's I's no see no need to be's pullin's mah gunses.
Now, if he be aimin's that thar gunses at anybody's elseseses, wells, I's maht be's inclined to be defendin's the sichy-ation.
Well's, that's a I's be doin's.

enjoy.

[lrb111]

None of the other 12 passengers on the bus was hurt.

let's take a look at this. "None... was hurt."
really?
The English Language that far gone that journalists don't even have to learn it.

in that mode, I opine.

Wells, what I's be doings is duckin's mah headses as soon as thu gunses be goings offs. soundses to meh that thu suspect be puttin's thu gunses in his pantses, so's I's no see no need to be's pullin's mah gunses.
Now, if he be aimin's that thar gunses at anybody's elseseses, wells, I's maht be's inclined to be defendin's the sichy-ation.
Well's, that's a I's be doin's.

enjoy.

I'm gonna get flatter'n a flitter on the floorboards, fast.