Need some opinions please

[NcongruNt]

We had some similar discussion on this topic regarding a post of mine (http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... sc&start=0)in this forum. Does the handbook/policy specifically have the 30.06 wording in it? If no, you are not legally obliged to not carry unless you are verbally told by your manager that you cannot carry.

The situation you're in seems to be far and above better than mine, as you report directly to the owner, and he is a CHL holder. If he does not tell you specifically that you cannot carry, and the specific 30.06 wording is not in the handbook, then you are legally covered. I'd personally be comfortable carrying in such a situation. My guess is that a CHL-carrying boss isn't gonna fire you for carrying, and he should know the law well enough to tell you specifically that you cannot carry if those were his wishes.

No. it can be written or verbal from an employer. the company manuel does not have to be 30.06 wording.

Reading from my handbook, written notification as defined in 30.06 (2)(c)(3) states that it indeed has to be in exact 30.06 language. I agree that it does not necessarily have to be in the manual, but if prohibited in writing, must be in exact 30.06 language.

But I'm new to this, and maybe I missed an exemption somewhere having to do with employers.

[KBCraig]

We had some similar discussion on this topic regarding a post of mine (http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... sc&start=0)in this forum. Does the handbook/policy specifically have the 30.06 wording in it?

No. it can be written or verbal from an employer. the company manuel does not have to be 30.06 wording.

NcongruNt is correct: to be effective notice under 30.06, any written communication, whether a sign, employee handbook, or a piece of paper handed to you, must have the 30.06 wording.

§ 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED
HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of
Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another
without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder
with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed
handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.
(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice
if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to
act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written
communication.
(c) In this section:
(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section
30.05(b).
(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by
Section 46.035(f).
(3) "Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written
language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06,
Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed
handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411,
Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this
property with a concealed handgun"; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by
Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with
block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner
clearly visible to the public.

[Right2Carry]

Ok so you the written notice must be in the form of 30.06. This will prevent you from being charged with carrying a concealed firearm but will not prevent your employer from firing you because you failed to follow company policy.

Unless the legislatures step in and allow us to leave our weapons locked in our cars or carry at work, your employer can impose certain restrictions as a condition of your employment. Most employers have you agree to follow company policy, and if you don't, you could be subjected to termination. Employers have little ways to get you to agree to follow company policy, much like an officer has ways to get you to consent to a search of your vehicle.

Bottom line, if it is company policy then they can and will fire you for it. Most companies have a zero tolerance for weapons violations.

[quidni]

I do understand that if I carry at the office, & am found out, under current law they have the right to fire me for violating departmental policy (or even for no reason at all). Since I really like my job, right now I'm content to keep my "little friend" safely locked inside my vehicle (which I can see right outside the window next to my desk), as it's a public parking lot & not state property.

But what you're saying, in effect, is that these two sections (copied verbatim) from the HR manual do not meet the "effective notice" qualifications for employers?

Weapons
Employees will not carry or keep firearms or any other weapons on department property or at any time while working for or representing the department. This includes firearms or other weapons kept in vehicles that are parked on state property.

<snip>

Behavior Problems: Behavior problems warranting disciplinary attention include, but are not limited to:

* carrying a weapon (concealed or otherwise) during work hours, or while carrying out official duties on or off state property. This includes keeping weapons in vehicles parked on state property.

[Mithras61]

I do understand that if I carry at the office, & am found out, under current law they have the right to fire me for violating departmental policy (or even for no reason at all). Since I really like my job, right now I'm content to keep my "little friend" safely locked inside my vehicle (which I can see right outside the window next to my desk), as it's a public parking lot & not state property.

But what you're saying, in effect, is that these two sections (copied verbatim) from the HR manual do not meet the "effective notice" qualifications for employers?

Weapons
Employees will not carry or keep firearms or any other weapons on department property or at any time while working for or representing the department. This includes firearms or other weapons kept in vehicles that are parked on state property.

<snip>

Behavior Problems: Behavior problems warranting disciplinary attention include, but are not limited to:

* carrying a weapon (concealed or otherwise) during work hours, or while carrying out official duties on or off state property. This includes keeping weapons in vehicles parked on state property.

You are correct that it doesn't meet notice requirements under 30.06, but they can still discipline and/or fire you over the firearm.

You have to choose: Is it worth your job to not be armed during the times when it is during your shift or not? If not, then you need to find a different method of securing it or not bring it with you out of the house. If it is worth risking your job, secure it as you see fit, and don't sweat the small stuff (after all, you were looking for a job when you found that one, right?). In either case, you cannot be charged with criminal trespass, since the wording isn't considered effective notice.

[NcongruNt]

I do understand that if I carry at the office, & am found out, under current law they have the right to fire me for violating departmental policy (or even for no reason at all). Since I really like my job, right now I'm content to keep my "little friend" safely locked inside my vehicle (which I can see right outside the window next to my desk), as it's a public parking lot & not state property.

But what you're saying, in effect, is that these two sections (copied verbatim) from the HR manual do not meet the "effective notice" qualifications for employers?

Weapons
Employees will not carry or keep firearms or any other weapons on department property or at any time while working for or representing the department. This includes firearms or other weapons kept in vehicles that are parked on state property.

<snip>

Behavior Problems: Behavior problems warranting disciplinary attention include, but are not limited to:

* carrying a weapon (concealed or otherwise) during work hours, or while carrying out official duties on or off state property. This includes keeping weapons in vehicles parked on state property.

Also, they have no say over having your gun in your car in the parking lot. IMO, that parking lot policy is a lawsuit waiting to happen (as they have been recently for the same reasons), especially if a state government agency is unduly impeding the Second Amendment rights of its employess, where the law spells out that they have no legal grounding to do so. Obviously, there are exceptions in the law, but it does not seem like that is the situation here.

All that said, not many people want to become the legal case that reinforces the law.

[Bif]

But what you're saying, in effect, is that these two sections (copied verbatim) from the HR manual do not meet the "effective notice" qualifications for employers?

30.06 and employers policies are 2 completely different issues. PC 30.06 pertains to a legal issue that involves prosecution liability. If an employer posts his premises with 30.06 sign then that applies to ALL folks, CHL or unlicensed (LEO excepted). Violation whether by visitors, customers, or employees is criminal trespass.

If not posted but the business has a policy against employee's carrying weapons on the premises or in vehicles in the parking lot, no legal action may be undertaken but termination of employment is most likely.

Since Texas is an employment at will state either party may terminate employment at any time for any reason, or for no reason.

[stevie_d_64]

Mr. Brown,

As much as you know how "Wife-Unit" and I have been bounced around in the job market the last 5-6 years...

I believe you are making the right decision...Follow the money...

The fact that you know the owner and the wife have CHL's is almost irrelavent...Just be glad they understand that aspect of the issue...

I would probably not make a big deal out of it, keep it locked up out in the truck, and on some Friday make some plans to close shop early and head to the nearest range to punch holes in the paper with them...

Don't say anything about running to the house to pick "it" up, but head straight out there and get it done...

That alone might break the ice and let them know you have something out in the vehicle that they have an understanding about...

And leave it at that...

$700 more a month in my pocket would be kinda nice...You've done good there sir!

[Right2Carry]

I was wondering what the outcome of this was. Did he take the new job or stay at the old one. Please post an update.

[RPBrown]

Update--No I did not take the job. Not because of the policy on firearms (although that was a contributing factor). In our final meeting the owner decided to lower the starting salary and give performance based bonuses. Although I am not opposed to the bonus, this was not what was agreed on in our first 2 meetings. $50.00 less per week base than what I am making now plus bonuses.
Also, he would not remove the firearms section fromthe policy, change to licensed, or give written permission. He said that I had his permission but would not put it in writting.
There were some other factors as well but they were minor in comparison.
In all actuality, I was going to accept the position until he started with the salary plus bonus talk. Everything else could have been worked through.
I told him thanks but no thanks and left. He did call me later and came back in line with what was talked about in the first 2 meetings, however, at that point I have lost the trust factor so I again declined.

Thanks for all of the replies and opinions. Ya'll will never know how much they helped and will help in future job decisions.

[seamusTX]

In our final meeting the owner decided to lower the starting salary and give performance based bonuses. Although I am not opposed to the bonus, this was not what was agreed on in our first 2 meetings.

I think you did the right thing.

I once worked for someone who played this kind of game. My gut told me to steer clear, but I ignored it. I ended up doing about $5,000 worth of work for nothing. That won't happen again.

- Jim

[txinvestigator]

In all actuality, I was going to accept the position until he started with the salary plus bonus talk. Everything else could have been worked through.

Sounds like you made reasonable decisions.

at that point I have lost the trust factor so I again declined

I learned this too, the hard way.

Well done, IMO.

[KBCraig]

Update--No I did not take the job. Not because of the policy on firearms (although that was a contributing factor). In our final meeting the owner decided to lower the starting salary and give performance based bonuses. Although I am not opposed to the bonus, this was not what was agreed on in our first 2 meetings. $50.00 less per week base than what I am making now plus bonuses.
Also, he would not remove the firearms section fromthe policy, change to licensed, or give written permission. He said that I had his permission but would not put it in writting.

So, he expected you to rely on a verbal promise, when he'd just finished breaking the promises he'd already made?

Good call on taking a pass.

Kevin

[Venus Pax]

I agree with the others. If you can't trust his word, you're better off where you're at.