17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

[jmra]

Conjecture has to based in fact though and supported by evidence...especially when admitted by the prosecution. A prosecutor can't just say "we think Zimmerman attacked Martin"--the question right back at him is do you have any evidence of this? The answer can't be "well just cause I have a gut feeling."

IANAL but I hve seen commentary on this by people who are. Several times I have been told that really it does not matter who engaged who first. Martin had Zimmerman on the ground (evidenced by injuries and wittness testimony). Zimmerman even if he did start Martin by say pushing him (no evidence of that, but lets say he did) had obviously wanted to disengage (screaming for help), and so with Martin's head bashing was then in the clear to use deadly force to stop from being killed.

That appears to be the crux of the problem with the fact pattern. Martin's mother is said to identified the voice as her son's. Another report was said to have had the voice print analyzed electronically and that it wasn't Zimmerman's. IMHO, if it was not Zimmerman yelling for help, his version of the the account becomes suspect. Martin yelling for help before the gunshot on the tape is the problem. There has been not statement that it was a 3rd party yelling for help so it pretty much has to be one of the two involved. Which one could be pivotal.

Martin's father originally stated that the voice was not his sons. There is a witness who claims that it was Zimmerman calling for help.
The voice analysis was inconclusive. It showed a 48% match to Zimmerman. The problem with the voice analysis is the lack of a proper control for comparison. If you are trying to match an unknown conversational voice recorded on a phone you need a known conversational voice recorded on a similar phone to compare it with (the control). In this case you would need a control of Zimmerman being recorded over a phone from a distance in a panicked voice yelling one word, "help". Without that control the voice analysis is worthless. It is also almost impossible to match a single word. You need a string of words with multiple matches in order to obtain a high match probability.

[fulano]

http://www.old-time.com/mp3s/riley1.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[mamabearCali]

Conjecture has to based in fact though and supported by evidence...especially when admitted by the prosecution. A prosecutor can't just say "we think Zimmerman attacked Martin"--the question right back at him is do you have any evidence of this? The answer can't be "well just cause I have a gut feeling."

IANAL but I hve seen commentary on this by people who are. Several times I have been told that really it does not matter who engaged who first. Martin had Zimmerman on the ground (evidenced by injuries and wittness testimony). Zimmerman even if he did start Martin by say pushing him (no evidence of that, but lets say he did) had obviously wanted to disengage (screaming for help), and so with Martin's head bashing was then in the clear to use deadly force to stop from being killed.

That appears to be the crux of the problem with the fact pattern. Martin's mother is said to identified the voice as her son's. Another report was said to have had the voice print analyzed electronically and that it wasn't Zimmerman's. IMHO, if it was not Zimmerman yelling for help, his version of the the account becomes suspect. Martin yelling for help before the gunshot on the tape is the problem. There has been not statement that it was a 3rd party yelling for help so it pretty much has to be one of the two involved. Which one could be pivotal.

I understand, but why would Martin on top of Zimmerman hitting him (which we have evidence of by a third party and by wounds on Zimmerman) be yelling for help. If Martin wanted to end the contact--all he had to do was walk away. Martin's mother heard the tape when she was in a very emotional (understandable) state. Zimmerman's friend has also said that it was Zimmerman yelling. He at least was not as emotional as she when he heard the tape. Having heard people yell for help I know that they people sound very different when they are in distress than they do in everyday life. Forensic analysis of voice patterns (from what I have been told) is significantly less reliable than DNA, fingerprints, or even handwriting. So I put more stock in the witness statements and his head wounds.

As I have said again and again we don't really know what happened. What we do know is that Martin was seen walking down the street. Zimmerman found him suspicious and watched him at some point on foot. The next thing we know for sure is that we have Zimmerman on his back, Martin pounding him, and then in the fray Martin is shot. That is the sum of what we know for sure. Everything else is guessing.

[ScooterSissy]

Conjecture has to based in fact though and supported by evidence...especially when admitted by the prosecution. A prosecutor can't just say "we think Zimmerman attacked Martin"--the question right back at him is do you have any evidence of this? The answer can't be "well just cause I have a gut feeling."

IANAL but I hve seen commentary on this by people who are. Several times I have been told that really it does not matter who engaged who first. Martin had Zimmerman on the ground (evidenced by injuries and wittness testimony). Zimmerman even if he did start Martin by say pushing him (no evidence of that, but lets say he did) had obviously wanted to disengage (screaming for help), and so with Martin's head bashing was then in the clear to use deadly force to stop from being killed.

That appears to be the crux of the problem with the fact pattern. Martin's mother is said to identified the voice as her son's. Another report was said to have had the voice print analyzed electronically and that it wasn't Zimmerman's. IMHO, if it was not Zimmerman yelling for help, his version of the the account becomes suspect. Martin yelling for help before the gunshot on the tape is the problem. There has been not statement that it was a 3rd party yelling for help so it pretty much has to be one of the two involved. Which one could be pivotal.

Keep in mind that Martin's mother also originally stated he was a "model student", and when asked about the school suspension, claimed it was for being in an area of the school he wasn't supposed to be in. Also Martin's father said it didn't sound like his son.

As far as the experts on the voice, one of them has already stated that he expects Zimmerman's lawyers will find experts to claim that it is Zimmerman's voice. It sounds like the voiceprinting is a pretty inexact science. Add to that, the screamin was recorded in the background from a cell phone call. Finally, there is an eyewitness that said "the guy on the bottom is screaming for help" (not an exact quote, but that's the substance).

[drjoker]

Lynching mob attacks started: http://www.toledoblade.com/Police-Fire/ ... oledo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Always be ready.

Wow, boys yelled "Kill that white man," while kicking him and the guy being kicked had to defend himself and prove that the VICTIM is not a racist?! It's pretty sad comment on the public idiot, I mean school system that a 78 year old pacifist who was against the Vietnam war has finally lost his naivete and is getting a CHL,

But now, Mr. Watts says he plans to buy a gun and obtain a permit to carry it. "What happened to me … down here on the corner, that changed my perspective on humanity," Mr. Watts said.

You know, racism is racism and the excuses that people have for being racist are just that, excuses. The lamest excuse is the one that is in vogue these days, "No matter what the oppressed do, it cannot be labelled racist because they are the oppressed." I heard Louis Farrakhan say this in a live speech once in Austin.

One of the many reasons why I'm a conservative Republican is because of Ronald Reagan, "I don’t care if every seat is filled by an Asian if they’ve earned the right to be there.” That says a lot. The American dream is not entitlements, welfare, and affirmative action. That would be Socialism and Communism. The American dream is keeping what you earn and hard work. Just because the Cold War is over doesn't mean that the ideological culture war is over.

[Bart]

trayvon's family has started court procedures to copyright his sayings??? No time for grief when they have shirts to sell I guess.

It's no coincidence the Martin family lawyers are a personal injury firm, not experts in Florida criminal law.

A coworker was explaining at lunch why the family keeps demanding the police arrest Zimmerman. It has to do with the way Florida enacted their civil immunity for justified force in Florida Statute § 776.032.

[Keith B]

Here is a great read. It talks about whether you are a racist or not or if you are profiling if you associate a young black person with crime or even a Muslim with being a terrorist. It is written by Walter Williams who is a black conservative columnist.

http://townhall.com/columnists/walterew ... page/full/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Oldgringo]

Here is a great read. It talks about whether you are a racist or not or if you are profiling if you associate a young black person with crime or even a Muslim with being a terrorist. It is written by Walter Williams who is a black conservative columnist.

http://townhall.com/columnists/walterew ... page/full/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Excellent and timely article!

I wonder if the current POTUS, FLOTUS and the race baiting TV and newspaper media have seen it?

[baldeagle]

Yet another correction by the media. CNN previously ran a story that Zimmerman had spoken the racial slur "coon" in his call to the police dispatcher. Interspersed in the call, in the portion where the dispatcher tells Zimmerman that the police don't need him to follow Trayvon was a phrase muttered under his breath. The phrase was a curse word followed by what CNN said sounded like "coon". Now, having enhanced the audio more, CNN has discovered that the word was actually "cold". That night was particularly cold and it was raining, which would have made it even more miserable.

Of course the damage is already done. Those who believe the first version will swear that they still hear the racial slur. Story here: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism ... r-Scrutiny" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That makes now three mea culpa's in this story. NBC's malicious editing of the Zimmerman call, ABC's malicious dropping of the word "OK" spoken by Zimmerman when told he didn't need to follow Trayvon and CNN's false speculation that the word spoken was a racial slur. The media is batting a 10000 in their eagerness to hang Zimmerman without a trial. (NBC has now fired the producer who approved the edit.)

[SRH78]

If I still had any respect for the media, this disgraceful behavior would have caused me to lose it.

[Oldgringo]

"Fifth Column", look it up.

[Jusster]

Yet another correction by the media. CNN previously ran a story that Zimmerman had spoken the racial slur "coon" in his call to the police dispatcher. Interspersed in the call, in the portion where the dispatcher tells Zimmerman that the police don't need him to follow Trayvon was a phrase muttered under his breath. The phrase was a curse word followed by what CNN said sounded like "coon". Now, having enhanced the audio more, CNN has discovered that the word was actually "cold". That night was particularly cold and it was raining, which would have made it even more miserable.

Of course the damage is already done. Those who believe the first version will swear that they still hear the racial slur. Story here: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism ... r-Scrutiny" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That makes now three mea culpa's in this story. NBC's malicious editing of the Zimmerman call, ABC's malicious dropping of the word "OK" spoken by Zimmerman when told he didn't need to follow Trayvon and CNN's false speculation that the word spoken was a racial slur. The media is batting a 10000 in their eagerness to hang Zimmerman without a trial. (NBC has now fired the producer who approved the edit.)

Actually it's already changed to "punks". Third times a charm I guess....

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/06/en ... cial-slur/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Jusster

[baldeagle]

When it comes to news reporting, the first thing that dies is the truth.

[baldeagle]

Apparently George Zimmerman passed a voice stress test on the night of the shooting. http://patdollard.com/2012/04/zimmerman ... -shooting/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;