Would I need a lawyer?

[Scott Murray]

If I ever had to use my handgun to save my life, my instincts would be to carefully explain what happened to the police, and trust that I wouldn't be charged with anything.

But everything I've read and heard emphatically states that I shouldn't give the police anything more than a basic statement, and I should engage a lawyer immediately. I expect my children would have to give up a year's college tuition, in the best case, to cover the legal expenses.

What do you think? And where would I find a good criminal defense attorney? I live on the southeast side of Houston. Does anyone have any good recommendations? Should I make any kind of contact ahead of time, to establish a relationship?

I really don't expect to need this. But the reason I have a concealed handgun in the first place is to be prepared.

[one eyed fatman]

I have no idea why someone would need a lawyer if there were no charges filed against you. Can it go to a grand jury if no charges were filed? I think so. If it went to a grand jury without charges I would consider just going in and telling my story. At least that way I wouldn't have to sell my house to feed the hungry beast (lawyer). But if charges did exist then it would be advisable to have a lawyer.

[Paladin]

Personnally the only thing I would say to the police after a self-defense shooting would be "I need to speak to my lawyer" Repeat until you've got your lawyer.

I guarantee you your words WILL be used against you in court. I've seen 2 criminal trials and both criminals did themselves in making statements to the police. Just the way your statement is made can sink you in court.

Massad Ayoob recommends that all CHL holders carry a card with their lawyer's phone number on it.

He recommends the call you get from jail be to your lawyer not your family.

That said, I don't have a such a card or lawyer specializing in self-defense cases.

Excellent question Scott.

Can anybody recommend a good lawyer for SE Houston?

[Baytown]

OK, I was going to not put my profession out here, but if you have not figured it out, well......

I am a police officer and I can assure you, you need a lawyer. Hell, I carry a card with about 10 different phone numbers of lawyers. Everything you do may have been justified both in the law and to yourself, but why risk it?

Sorry if this gets long, but here we go. In Harris County, and more than likely in other big counties, the officer does not make the descision if you will be charged or not. On any offense above a Class C Misd, we must call the Harris Co DA's office and run the facts of the case by them and the Asst DA will make the choice to take the case or not. I am as gun friendly as they come, but I can assure you on any shooting, the DA will be called and the case run by them. So you may end up with a charge even if the officer gives you a high-five. You will go to a grand jury, and then there will more than likely be civil action brought against you.

The point I am attempting to make is that you need someone, an attorney,. to go over your statement, to ensure you do not leave anything out, and to make sure all the elements of the facts are clear.

I may be wrong, but I remember Clint Smith saying the average cost of a shooting is $40k. Not a bad deal if it saves my life or the life of a loved one, but a pretty crappy deal if it is to stop a thug from stealing my $25k truck that I have insurance on.

Bottom line: better be safe than sorry, get a lawyer.

Glenn

[CaptDave]

Let me start off by saying I'm not a lawyer - and I don't play one on the internet- ( I stole that from someone on this forum, I think).
But, I have studied this alot, taken some training courses and I did sleep in a Holiday Inn last night :D

If you're involved in a shooting - even a justified one, and you are not arrested on the spot (not sure what the procedure is), there is still the very good chance of civil action against you from the deceased' immediate family or relatives. You can expect about a 100% chance that you will get sued by them.
And by the way: during this hypothetical justified shooting if any third party innocent by-standers were hit or killed by a stray shot from you - Texas law does not provide any protection and you will be charged with their injury. If the third party dies I imagine the charges would include at least wrongful death or negligent homicide. This is a good reason to be absolutely sure of your target if things go downhill in a big way. At T.Ranch Heidi Smith likes to say "every bullet that leaves your gun has a lawyer attached to it". Also, be very sure of any situations you happen upon where you "assume" you know who's the good guy and who is the bad guy. A good rule of thumb is if you or your loved ones are not immediately in danger, call the police. And also, you should already have an idea in your mind regarding what instances you would use your weapon to take someones life. Remember a CHL is a license to carry a gun, not a license to use it.

You must be familiar with Texas law. There are many scenario's in which you may be in a situation where if you have the chance to de-escalate it (back-down) or retreat - and you do not, because you "know" that "you" have a gun on you- the jury will take this into account and it will not be good for you. For instance if you were threatened and you can drive off in your car but you decide to step out and escalate the confrontation to where you have to use your gun to stop a threat that you could have just driven away from, you are in BIG trouble. There are some exceptions, notably the "castle doctrine" which relates to the physical inside of your home. In a nutshell: there is no legal requirement to retreat once inside your own home.

Part of the responsibility of carrying is using good judgement in the first place. Get some training. It just may help you avoid getting into a position that you have to shoot your way out of.

Bottom line: a relationship with a good attorney beforehand with his phone number in your wallet would be a really good idea.

Sorry if I rambled or gave you a little more info than you wanted to hear.

[one eyed fatman]

I'd like this thread to continue without all the what if's. Let's do it on a someone broke into my home and theatened my family and I had no choice situation. Let's start here and then what if it to death later.

[Charles L. Cotton]

What do you think? And where would I find a good criminal defense attorney?

I'm not a CHL instructor, but I do teach NRA Basic Pistol and NRA Basic Personnel Protection In the Home classes, among others, primarily in ladies-only classes. I've also attended more Thunder Ranch classes than I can remember. Even my wife goes once a year to Team Tactics with me.

This issue comes up in every class, without exception. Glenn's comments as a LEO are well taken. I also have some opinions about how this should be handled and how I would do it myself. Of course, as an attorney I may have a little more insight on the matter, but I don't practice criminal law, so that insight may be limited. I also have a pretty strong opinion about how a justified shooting can turn sour merely by the way it was reported to the investigating officer. I will note that there is a risk in talking as well as a risk in remaining absolutely mute and the circumstances of the shooting and who's investigating it can have a bearing on which is the greater risk. Please note, I said "absolutely mute," not making a minimal statement, then shutting up until your attorney is present.

Even in the civil cases I try, I've seen many a witness destroy their cases simply because I was able to get them to explain their version of the facts in an unflattering manner.

I'd love to give my opinions, but I don't really want it on the Internet for any and all to see, if, God forbid, I'm ever in that situation. If there is any interest, I'd be happy to give a free seminar on self-defense and potential legal ramifications (criminal and civil), if we could figure a way to do it where a reasonable number of people could come. There are a lot of “old wives tales� like “drag ‘um into the house,� don’t dare carry handloaded ammo, don’t carry a custom pistol, that may have some basis in some jurisdictions, but may not have any effect in most parts of Texas.

Great topic - you don't want to be making critical decisions while still suffering from adrenalin dump!

Regards,
Chas.

[Double Naught Spy]

If I ever had to use my handgun to save my life, my instincts would be to carefully explain what happened to the police, and trust that I wouldn't be charged with anything.

Bad moves. There is no reason to trust not being arrested just because you know/believe it was a good shoot. There may be conflicting stories on how the shooting went down and your explanation may look really bad in regard to other witness stories and the forensic evidence.

Next, after a shooting, people often have problems explaining things in contextually appropriate manners and may blurt out things they should not blurt out or improperly explain what happened, the trouble of explanation coming from all the pressures of the situation, having to shoot somebody, adrenaline, and potential consequences for your actions. As one cop noted to me, folks often manage to talk themselves into a ticket or getting arrested when silence on the matter or not volunteering information would have precluded the ticket or arrest.

Also, there is no reason to believe that the officers on scene will necessarily get your story correctly. They should, but mistakes can happen.

It may be that the story you give is not readily believed by the cops and so their perspective on the investigation may lean toward identifyin factors that point to your guilt.

So, a lawyer helps protect you from yourself.

I'd like this thread to continue without all the what if's. Let's do it on a someone broke into my home and theatened my family and I had no choice situation. Let's start here and then what if it to death later.

Here, you always have a choice. Your choices are to shoot or not to shoot. Non-shooting choices may involve other weapons for defense, compliance, or escape.

Generally speaking, home intrusions are a little easier to justify than shootings on the street. However, the cops are going to need to be convinced that the person(s) you shot were actually home invaders and not guests you invited in to kill for some reason.

Regardless of the context of the shooting, you may still be arrested and held until you post bail or the cops manage to determine that the shooting was actually justified. That is just part of due process.

[sensei]

What do you think? And where would I find a good criminal defense attorney?

I'm not a CHL instructor, but I do teach NRA Basic Pistol and NRA Basic Personnel Protection In the Home classes, among others, primarily in ladies-only classes. I've also attended more Thunder Ranch classes than I can remember. Even my wife goes once a year to Team Tactics with me.

This issue comes up in every class, without exception. Glenn's comments as a LEO are well taken. I also have some opinions about how this should be handled and how I would do it myself. Of course, as an attorney I may have a little more insight on the matter, but I don't practice criminal law, so that insight may be limited. I also have a pretty strong opinion about how a justified shooting can turn sour merely by the way it was reported to the investigating officer. I will note that there is a risk in talking as well as a risk in remaining absolutely mute and the circumstances of the shooting and who's investigating it can have a bearing on which is the greater risk. Please note, I said "absolutely mute," not making a minimal statement, then shutting up until your attorney is present.

Even in the civil cases I try, I've seen many a witness destroy their cases simply because I was able to get them to explain their version of the facts in an unflattering manner.

I'd love to give my opinions, but I don't really want it on the Internet for any and all to see, if, God forbid, I'm ever in that situation. If there is any interest, I'd be happy to give a free seminar on self-defense and potential legal ramifications (criminal and civil), if we could figure a way to do it where a reasonable number of people could come. There are a lot of “old wives tales� like “drag ‘um into the house,� don’t dare carry handloaded ammo, don’t carry a custom pistol, that may have some basis in some jurisdictions, but may not have any effect in most parts of Texas.

Great topic - you don't want to be making critical decisions while still suffering from adrenalin dump!

Regards,
Chas.

Let me be the first one to sign up for that class. (maybe at PSC)

sensei

[GlockenHammer]

My Close Range Gunfighting instructor had a really good lecture on what to do after the shooting. I won't go over the whole lecture, but the key advice I plan to follow is this. Provide responding officers enough information to ensure their safety and establish you as the victim and this as a defensive shooting. Request immediate medical care (even if not wounded, the stress will be high). Use that time to get in contact with your attorney and let them handle all further communication.

It is too easy to say something that will get taken out of context or at least sound very different than intended. Once on the lips, forever on the record.

Charles, I'd be interested in your lecture. I've never had anyone that can accurately represent the civil aspects of shootings.

GH

[sensei]

I talk to my lawyer about this.

He said not only to get a lawyer but get one that practices in this field of law. He said that is exactly what he would do. He wouldn't trust himself ( he is a VERY well respected lawyer) or anyone else not trained in that field. Too much at stake.

I'm still looking for one to call upon myself. Any referrals?

sensei

[Scott Murray]

Please sign me up for the seminar, Charles. Thanks for the offer.

I'm also interested in any referrals. I'd be looking for a lawyer who's professionally competent, familiar with the local courts, of good character, a good Christian, someone I liked and could trust to give big picture counsel on what's the right thing to do as well as how to guide the legal proceedings.

But why would a man like that want to spend his career working mainly for a bunch of crooks.....

[Baytown]

Because representation in court is as important a right as the freedom to bear arms. He may not like the man he represents, but he understands his right to have the best defense possible. My two cents.

Glenn

[too-tall]

Charles, I would be interested in the seminar also, If I can make it.
Also, I too would like to know a good lawyer to call just in case. If anyone finds one please let us know.
Thanks.............

Too Tall

[Charles L. Cotton]

If there is enough interest in a seminar, I'll try to get a criminal attorney to speak as well. I don't practice criminal law, but I have a friend who works at Rusty Hardin's office and he may be able to take part.

I'll still in trial, so I'll work on this when I get back to Houston/Friendswood. (I do like these smaller counties for trying cases.)

Regards,
Chas.