Personal Defense Ammo

[Dan20703]

I've always had the opinion the RBCD was "gimmick" ammo. I'll stick to the tried and true.

[03Lightningrocks]

I just want to know why I have to buy the hog at a hispanic meat market. Are the hogs there different than the hogs at any other meat market?

[blackopstx]

I just want to know why I have to buy the hog at a hispanic meat market. Are the hogs there different than the hogs at any other meat market?

Have you ever been inside of one of those it looks like an Eli Roth Boutique, you can't get a 1/2 a Pig at a Randalls or Tom Thumb or Krogers, the comparison doesn't really work shooting a hamburger patty or a bone-in ribeye....that was what I was trying to stress.

[blackopstx]

It is essential to bear in mind that the single most critical factor remains penetration. While penetration up to 18 inches is preferable, a handgun bullet MUST reliably penetrate 12 inches of soft body tissue at a minimum, regardless of whether it expands or not. If the bullet does not reliably penetrate to these depths, it is not an effective bullet for law enforcement use.

Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness - Special Agent Urey W. Patrick, FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit, Qunatico, VA

I'll hang onto my Golden Sabers for now.

Let's look at .40S&W round the FBI uses, if you're trying to stop a threat of the soft tissue kind, RBCD has in a 77grain bullet 2100fps/754flbs that will make a 9" wide wound channel 11" deep......compared to Remington's Golden Saber which is 1307fps/626flbs, I can't find what golden saber's wound channel claims.......So I can have a lighter round that shoots faster, and has more energy at point of impact and penetrates 11 inches deep 9 inches wide, and that is NOT "an effective bullet for LE use?" how many bad guys are going to survive that type of round? And if you really wanted to stay protected even against "Fat Albert the Burglar" use the 10mm rbcd which has 242-fps/1015 flbs and leaves a 12x12 thereby satisfying Special Agent Patrick's minimal penetration requirements......But again as I've been told and instructed to others shoot what you're comfortable with. But when your foot is on the line I want Tier1 ammo and this is it.

[Ruark]

Keep in mind also that the penetration depths for RBCD are the farthest measurements possible, for the little pieces that keep going a few inches, NOT for the depth of the main wound cavity, which is half that distance.

I'm also leery of using such a light bullet. SIG recommends at least a 90 gr. bullet for the P238 to cycle properly, for example. The RBCD .380 is just 45 grains, not much more than a .22. It basically "splatters" in the first few inches of the target. I don't know what it would do if it hit an arm or a heavy coat or at an angle (the BG probably won't be standing perfectly square to you). The bullet itself consists of nothing more than a lead sphere sitting on top of a plastic ball, all encased in a brass shell. In fact, some of the RBCD rifle bullets are actually stock Hornadys, Noslers, etc. with a moly coating. There is NO "blended metal," etc. It is basically a fraud. Here's an abbreviated quote from one forum at http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19888" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;:

"Congress appropriated $1,050,000.00 to conduct a comprehensive study of LeMas “BMT” ammunition and evaluate the remarkable claims made by LeMas. A 3 year, multi-agency testing effort was conducted ... Virtually every single claim made by Mr. Bulmer and Mr. Hamilton regarding LeMas bullet design, manufacture, construction methodology and composition, pyrophoric and thermodynamic properties, behavior in tissue simulant, intermediate barrier capability, terminal performance in tissue were all determined to be FALSE."

I think I'll pass.

I'm staying with my 100 gr. Buffalo Bore 27A/20 hardcast flatpoints. They will penetrate 32 inches of ballistic gelatin. I KNOW I can rely on them to blow a hole clear through anybody - arms, ribs and all. WIth 8 rounds in the gun and 2 7-round clips on the belt, I'm good to go.

[blackopstx]

RBCD has in a 77grain bullet 2100fps/754flbs that will make a 9" wide wound channel 11" deep

Really. What was the target used - Goldie Hawn?



Second, you seem enamored of energy - and "energy dump" is a myth. Energy is required to push the bullet forward so that it makes a hole; it's physics, not magic.

To put energy into perspective - the energy of a typical .45acp bullet is equivalent to dropping a 10lb weight from a height of just under 1 1/2 inches; that of a 9mm bullet, a 10lb weight from a height of 3/4 inch. Impressive, huh?

But when your foot is on the line I want Tier1 ammo and this is it.

Not for me, it ain't ("Tier 1 ammo"? Who on earth invented that silly term? Some marketing twerp hoping to make it sound tacticool?).

You sure you don't work for the company who makes it? What's your relationship to DallasSVT, who coincidentally also is a new member pushing these magic bullets?

I'm starting to smell a pair of trolls, and if that's the case, you'll find that this forum, as with others, does NOT appreciate folks who are happy to risk others' lives so that they can make a buck.

Yes muzzle energy has no bearing on ballistics, I'm glad there's experts out there to point out Muzzle Energy is only as impressive a dropping a 10 pound weight an inch and a half! We really need to get ammo manufacturers to stop this unimpressive and irrelevant data, because some guy who lives in his moms basement and eats dino-nuggets says it's not that big of a deal. So far I've provided data and personal experience you're giving me copy and pasted pictures and words you think are "tacticool".....I'm not selling the am mall of my posts state shoot what you want......You've never shot or handled this ammo so again use what your comfortable with, maybe base pay spraying shoes at the local bowling alley, won't afford you the very best.

[olafpfj]

Blackopstx,

You join this forum and immediately begin shilling for what is widely considered gimmick ammo without so much as a hello. Your posts read like a used car salesman selling time shares. Now you're getting personal with a knowledgable and widely respected member of this forum?...

Don't really care what your affiliation is with the manufacturer or distributor but please stop spamming and/or trolling the site.

[blackopstx]

Blackopstx,

You join this forum and immediately begin shilling for what is widely considered gimmick ammo without so much as a hello. Your posts read like a used car salesman selling time shares. Now you're getting personal with a knowledgable and widely respected member of this forum?...

Don't really care what your affiliation is with the manufacturer or distributor but please stop spamming and/or trolling the site.

The funny thing is, we probably agree on most things on this forum, we have far more in common as we all have affinity for the love God, Country and Constitution. I'd much rather focus on what brings us together the divides us, in this forum the love of guns and bounce ideas and questions around. (BTW I don't think used car salesmen hock time shares) I'm into the nuts and bolts on ballistics and thought this was a good place to get feedback on what a better ballistic round would be for personal defense ammo....a comparison of available ballistic statistics. So far none of that has come into fruition. I've been the on lambasted as some hack snake oil salesman who's pushing RBCD, which I'm not- just seeing if anyone else has experience or first hand knowledge of it. But I don't think anyone here would allow a bunch of personal attacks shoveled on them without saying anything....Let me go on the record I HAVE NO affiliation with RBCD as a manufacturer or distributor at all ever. I like the stuff have used it in real world scenarios, in a variety of places and experiences -- not just reading stats and saying that's the best! I joined and WILL continue to interact on a variety of topics because this is a sight with like minded shooters. Not trying to rub people the wrong way, but I'm not a pushover either.....Look forward to more lively debates, and happy shooting to everyone out there!posting.php?mode=quote&f=23&p=634205#

[Armed-Texan]

TAP 230+p in my xd45

I have a mag full of hydra shok 230gr left from my last carry choice. I carried it over a year and decided to carry fresh ammo.

[olafpfj]

(BTW I don't think used car salesmen hock time shares)

You don't say!! <sarcasm> in case its missed. But if they did I imagine it would sound similar. Minus all the ammo stuff though since we're being literal...

I like the stuff have used it in real world scenarios, in a variety of places and experiences

Please...Regale us with haughty tales of daring. If its been declassified of course. Certainly don't want any Opsec violations here...

Anyway...you got your debate and when you lost you got really petulant and lashed out with personal attacks and name calling against a very respected member of the forum. Feel free to respond by PM since this is getting off topic and out of line with the usual jovial tone of this forum.

[03Lightningrocks]

LOL...yep...spam for sure! Poster registers on forum and posts only on a thread hawking a gimmick ammo.

[olafpfj]

LOL...yep...spam for sure! Poster registers on forum and posts only on a thread hawking a gimmick ammo.

All you need to know about RBCD ammo...

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19888" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Right2Carry]

The box of truth and RBCD Ammo.

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot38.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Draw your own conclusions but I wouldn't trust my life or any of my family members to this stuff!