What is "oral notification"?

[Ruark]

Much jaw-wagging has occurred with regard to 30-06 signs, but I haven't read much about the other option: oral notification, as per the penal code. So if an employee of a business, for whatever reason, tells you no guns are allowed, is that sufficient oral notification?

A security guard does a quick purse-check and sees a licensed concealed weapon in your wife's purse. He tells her it's not allowed.

As you enter a building, an LEO asks you if you have a firearm.

I've entered some state office buildings where a state trooper (or several state troopers) ask for your ID before allowing you to enter. Since it's a peace officer asking for your ID, I assume you're required to also show your CHL. He'll see it and ask if you have a firearm, and if you do, he tells you not to enter with it.

...just trying to get a clearer picture of what constitutes oral notification. Does it have to meet certain requirements, like the sign? I can visualize some pretty tense situations coming out of that requirement...

[The Annoyed Man]

Don't you mean "keyboard wagging?"

As far as I know, the person who gives you oral notice must be specifically authorized by the employer to give such notice.

[Oldgringo]

Much jaw-wagging has occurred with regard to 30-06 signs, but I haven't read much about the other option: oral notification, as per the penal code. So if an employee of a business, for whatever reason, tells you no guns are allowed, is that sufficient oral notification?

A security guard does a quick purse-check and sees a licensed concealed weapon in your wife's purse. He tells her it's not allowed.

As you enter a building, an LEO asks you if you have a firearm.

I've entered some state office buildings where a state trooper (or several state troopers) ask for your ID before allowing you to enter. Since it's a peace officer asking for your ID, I assume you're required to also show your CHL. He'll see it and ask if you have a firearm, and if you do, he tells you not to enter with it.

...just trying to get a clearer picture of what constitutes oral notification. Does it have to meet certain requirements, like the sign? I can visualize some pretty tense situations coming out of that requirement...

If, in any of the three scenarios above; i.e., Security Guard, LEO and/or DPS told me that my 'heater' was not allowed (?how did they know?), I'd consider that as oral notice. As far as an employee telling me that, he/she wouldn't know because concealed is concealed and I wouldn't have asked.

IANAL & YMMV.

[Keith B]

Actually, oral notification can be given by anyone in authority to provide that notice. In other words, if a person has been given permission to ask you to leave the premises, then you must leave. This can include employees, grounds-keepers, janitors, etc. So, if I was at a location and told by anyone that I was not allowed to carry there, then I would retreat until I could find out for sure if they were authorized and wouldn't risk getting charged with criminal trespass for not leaving.

But, as others have said, concealed is concealed and if you do it right, then they shouldn't know you are carrying, and absent of written notification being there, then you wouldn't get notification.

[RPB]

A security guard does a quick purse-check and sees a licensed concealed weapon in your wife's purse. He tells her it's not allowed.

.

"Excuse me, Mr. Security Guard, you let me examine the contents of your wallet first ... you may call for police if you like, and I'll discuss it with him, but you have to right to look at my Tampons or anything else in my purse.."

Seriously, I read, or imagined, a Walmart greeter type wanting to look in someone's fanny pack or something, and when the LEO officer policeman arrived, the CHL presented his CHL to the officer and stated he preferred that some Walmart greeter type not search his stuff and that's why ... the officer understood perfectly

No security guard nor Walmart greeter type has authority to search anything.... get the Police here so we can discuss this.

I've entered some state office buildings where a state trooper (or several state troopers) ask for your ID before allowing you to enter. Since it's a peace officer asking for your ID, I assume you're required to also show your CHL. He'll see it and ask if you have a firearm, and if you do, he tells you not to enter with it.

I'd imagine rather than say you can't come in, he'd send you through the CHL express line to bypass the metal detector, like at the State Capital and other State offices (except Courts)

[Keith B]

I think Ruark was talking about lines at concerts, etc. where they do bag checks when you go in, not Walmart type security.

[RPB]

I think Ruark was talking about lines at concerts, etc. where they do bag checks when you go in, not Walmart type security.

oh .. yeah, I was at a six flags or seaworld where they looked into my wife's fanny pack at the ticket gate, it was full of Tampons, and a 5" blade knife under those I guess they didn't see ... they kept the 4" knife from my belt, but let the one in she had ...

Yep, those places are nosey and want to look as a condition for entrance .... though they weren't nosey enough as they didn't look in my boots .... (I had deadly smells in them... THAT would cure "nosey")

[apostate]

Spoken communication. An interesting question is whether a deaf person is subject to oral notice.

[Crossfire]

I have had my bag searched at several places. No one, not even LEOs have discovered my handgun. A good concealed carry bag does not leave the firearm open to plain view when the bag is opened. It is in a separate, and often locked, compartment. This keeps the McDonald's, or Target, or Walmart, employee from freaking out when you take out your wallet to pay.

However, if it is a REAL security checkpoint, where I have to show ID and CHL, I will let them know where the handgun is located.

[ELB]

Spoken communication. An interesting question is whether a deaf person is subject to oral notice.

Yes. My CHL instructor in San Antonio (years ago) mentioned that the Alamo Dome (I think) broadcast annoucments over the external speakers (the ones outside the building) which included a declaration of concealed handguns were not allowed. Setting aside whether this was a government owned building, I wonder how enforceable that was. I am not completely deaf, but I have some hearing loss, and it is not easy to make out public announcements in a large noisy crowd, even assuming I am paying attention.

As far as a DPS officer asking for ID at a state office building (and subsequently showing CHL) -- there should be no oral notification for a government owned building unless it houses a court or an execution or some such...

[snatchel]

A security guard does a quick purse-check and sees a licensed concealed weapon in your wife's purse. He tells her it's not allowed.

.

"Excuse me, Mr. Security Guard, you let me examine the contents of your wallet first ... you may call for police if you like, and I'll discuss it with him, but you have to right to look at my Tampons or anything else in my purse.."

Seriously, I read, or imagined, a Walmart greeter type wanting to look in someone's fanny pack or something, and when the LEO officer policeman arrived, the CHL presented his CHL to the officer and stated he preferred that some Walmart greeter type not search his stuff and that's why ... the officer understood perfectly

No security guard nor Walmart greeter type has authority to search anything.... get the Police here so we can discuss this.

I've entered some state office buildings where a state trooper (or several state troopers) ask for your ID before allowing you to enter. Since it's a peace officer asking for your ID, I assume you're required to also show your CHL. He'll see it and ask if you have a firearm, and if you do, he tells you not to enter with it.

I'd imagine rather than say you can't come in, he'd send you through the CHL express line to bypass the metal detector, like at the State Capital and other State offices (except Courts)

So when the greeters at Walmart/Sams club want to see your reciept or whatever to check your bags/basket, they have no authority to do so? If I can ignore them I will..... It annoys me to get checked @ the door when I have just spent money in their store.

[Taggart]

So when the greeters at Walmart/Sams club want to see your receipt or whatever to check your bags/basket, they have no authority to do so? If I can ignore them I will..... It annoys me to get checked @ the door when I have just spent money in their store.

What authority to stop you from leaving the store do you believe they have? Their "authority" rests solely in the surprising willingness of most people to allow themselves to be treated like common criminals. I usually ignore them, and the RFID alarms at store exits that often sound false alarms.

[sjfcontrol]

So when the greeters at Walmart/Sams club want to see your receipt or whatever to check your bags/basket, they have no authority to do so? If I can ignore them I will..... It annoys me to get checked @ the door when I have just spent money in their store.

What authority to stop you from leaving the store do you believe they have? Their "authority" rests solely in the surprising willingness of most people to allow themselves to be treated like common criminals. I usually ignore them, and the RFID alarms at store exits that often sound false alarms.

Maybe for Walmart, but SAMs club (and Costco) is a, uh, club... Where you agree when you sign up, to allow them to chech your receipt on exit. Refusal can cost you your membership.

[apostate]

Maybe for Walmart, but SAMs club (and Costco) is a, uh, club... Where you agree when you sign up, to allow them to chech your receipt on exit. Refusal can cost you your membership.

Even so, it doesn't seem to be illegal. At worst it would be breach of contract or some other civil matter.

Hypothetically, if you refuse to allow Walmart to check, they could tell you you're not allowed to return to the store. To circle back dangerously close to the original question, that would be oral notice under 30.05 and returning (with or without a handgun) would be criminal trespass.

IMHO. IANAL. 31-10

[Texas Dan Mosby]

No security guard nor Walmart greeter type has authority to search anything....

No, they don't.

However, as agents of the company / property owner, they can be given authority to control access to said property, in accordance with the law and company policy. So while a search is "voluntary", should you not want to to be searched, they can deny you access to the property.

I wouldn't think that a recorded message could be considered "oral notification", simply because a recording is a one way form of communication. What happens if you can't hear the recording?

Face to face, IMO, would be the only legitimate form of oral notification, as understanding of the notification can be verified by both parties.