Flash Mob

[TARX]

How do you defend yourself against a flash mob? None of us carry enough firepower or ammo to take out the entire mob. When could you reasonably conclude that you could lawfully use deadly force against members of the mob? Would the mere presence of the mob and it's proximity to you allow the use of deadly force? The wife and I have tried to develop a plan for dealing with this matter but have not come up with a good one.

[mojo84]

I bet once you shoot one or two of them, the rest will scatter like rats.

[GlockFan]

[quote="mojo84"]I bet once you shoot one or two of them, the rest will scatter like rats.
Thanks for making me spray coffee all over my laptop.

[E.Marquez]

I bet once you shoot one or two of them, the rest will scatter like rats.
Thanks for making me spray coffee all over my laptop.

History shows it does not work that way.
You get a few seconds while they duck the first time, and you better take advantage.. after that the MOB moves, and if a few more fall, the rest will MOB along.
So Shoot a few, and RUN……., round a corner, wait.. Shoot a few more AND RUN, repeat until your clear or out of ammo, then RUN

[Westfield]

Tough one...Let's say you had the firepower to take out 20...Would you then be a mass murderer in the eyes of the law ? The use of deadly force depends upon the individual situation. Most flash mobs descend upon small stores and clean them out. However, the case at the Wisconsin state fair was different and the mob beat people randomly ( or not so randomly if you know what I mean). I wonder if there were any concealed carry folks there and what they may have or could have done. Tough scenario.

[KingofChaos]

Well this wasn't in Texas, but I think it's worth mentioning none the less.
http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=108&t=46149

CCW holder is attacked at a gas station by 2 BGs and it seems that the DA determined that the inequality of numbers combined with assault was enough to constitute being threatened with deadly force since charges weren't filed. I feel like the same would occur here in Texas. If you're getting attacked by double digit, or high single digit BGs, I feel it is quite reasonable to be in fear of your life. Furthermore, if one of them did have a weapon, how could you possible tell with fist and feet flying from every direction. I just think this would fall well into the "or reason to believe" category of the deadly force criteria.

[speedsix]

I bet once you shoot one or two of them, the rest will scatter like rats.
Thanks for making me spray coffee all over my laptop.

History shows it does not work that way.
You get a few seconds while they duck the first time, and you better take advantage.. after that the MOB moves, and if a few more fall, the rest will MOB along.
So Shoot a few, and RUN……., round a corner, wait.. Shoot a few more AND RUN, repeat until your clear or out of ammo, then RUN

...good advice...and good reason to have 40+ rounds on your person...you have to understand that a mob DOES NOT REASON like we do...they REACT...and always unpredictably...

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

Well this wasn't in Texas, but I think it's worth mentioning none the less.
http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=108&t=46149

CCW holder is attacked at a gas station by 2 BGs and it seems that the DA determined that the inequality of numbers combined with assault was enough to constitute being threatened with deadly force since charges weren't filed. I feel like the same would occur here in Texas. If you're getting attacked by double digit, or high single digit BGs, I feel it is quite reasonable to be in fear of your life. Furthermore, if one of them did have a weapon, how could you possible tell with fist and feet flying from every direction. I just think this would fall well into the "or reason to believe" category of the deadly force criteria.

I do not think that the OP's question was about using deadly force if he/she was being attacked but when/if he/she could use deadly force due to the presence of a "Flash Mob" (e.g. you are in the mall and across the corridor there is a "Flash Mob" you are not being attacked but you are near them and in their presence).

I would have to say that if the mob is not threatening you or actively attacking you, you could potentially have a hard time proving that you were actually in fear for your life. Now, if you are in a store and a "Flash Mob" comes in and the group is blocking the exit then it could be a different story but it is my understanding that you still need to prove that you were in fear for your life. I would think it would all come down to if you have the opportunity to leave the area without confronting the mob and if they were attacking/targeting you.

If the mob is attacking you then you have every right to defend yourself. However, as the OP stated the majority of us do not carry that amount of ammo. I also believe that it is a big misconception that if a round or two is fired that the mob will disperse. I have to agree with bronco's tactics (I have a feeling he may have some experience in similar situations being military and all).

I view "Flash Mobs" as ambushes and that we should treat them as they train us in the military. You must turn and fight through them. Obviously we cannot take that verbatim but the main point is still applicable. If we are to find ourselves being attacked by a "Flash Mob" and we have the time/opportunity to draw and fire then we should. While we are firing we should be analyzing the scene and look for openings in the mob. Once the opening is found we need to run as fast as we can for a near exit. Unfortunately this may not be possible. If that is the case then we should run for the nearest cover. Doing this can allow us to do a few key things. It will allow us to reload, keep an eye on the mob, and call 911 if time allows (always call 911 but make sure you are safe to do so). Obviously if the mob follows you then you should fire again and then relocate. As bronco said we need to keep doing this until one of three things happen 1) the mob stops 2) you run out of ammo (in which case you just keep running) 3) you reach an exit.

Again, I would only suggest stopping if there is no clear and immediate exit. If there is and you do not use it you could be asked "Why didn't you run out the exit?" by the officers or DA and this could lead to them thinking that you were not in fear for your life as there was a clear and immediate exit that you could have used but chose not to and instead chose to fight.

***IANAL nor did I sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night
***As always when you fire know your surroundings!

[ninemm]

and plan your magazine exchange - try to keep count and not get caught with an empty gun at a really bad time

[KingofChaos]

@XtremeDuty.45

Well maybe I wasn't clear, he does ask for when he legally can use deadly force. And I guess my simplified response would actually be a question. If one of these mobs isn't attacking you or robbing you, why would you WANT to use deadly force in the first place? I don't think you legally could, and I don't logically see why you would want to.

[Westfield]

haos » Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:53 pm
@XtremeDuty.45

Well maybe I wasn't clear, he does ask for when he legally can use deadly force. And I guess my simplified response would actually be a question. If one of these mobs isn't attacking you or robbing you, why would you WANT to use deadly force in the first place? I don't think you legally could, and I don't logically see why you would want to.

But what if the mob is beating the snot out of defenseless people like they did in Wisconsin ? What should our rersponse if any be ?

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

haos » Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:53 pm
@XtremeDuty.45

Well maybe I wasn't clear, he does ask for when he legally can use deadly force. And I guess my simplified response would actually be a question. If one of these mobs isn't attacking you or robbing you, why would you WANT to use deadly force in the first place? I don't think you legally could, and I don't logically see why you would want to.

But what if the mob is beating the snot out of defenseless people like they did in Wisconsin ? What should our rersponse if any be ?

That has been debated many times on here and it has been quite a while since I have been on the forum but IIRC it is usually mixed opinions. My opinion would be to try and help the innocent party out if I felt that I could. HOWEVER, in order for me to use deadly force I would have to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person is innocent and didn't attack first.

Example: You are pulling into a gas station and upon exiting your vehicle you see some guy getting beat. You did not see anything else but a fight. Not what started it, nothing. So how do you know who is innocent? How do you know the guy doing the beating wasn't attacked and is now defending himself?

I understand that in the cases of these "Flash Mobs" that it would be pretty obvious who is the innocent party. But you have to consider the numbers. Are you going to do any good by intervening or will you just become another casualty? I am one that believes in helping others out when I can. However, in a case like this I might even have to say that the best thing a person could do is to call 911 and provide the best and most detailed descriptions that you can. Stay on the line with them and do one of two things after the mob leaves. Check the victim/s and depending if they are in need of first aid or not you should 1) render first aid or 2) try and see where the mob is going and give as much information to the authorities as you can (car descriptions, directions, etc).

Obviously this is my opinion and everyone has their own. Also, each situation is different. You cannot have a planned course of action and think that will work for everything. There are just too many variables in every scenario (location, bystanders, is your family with you or not, number of BGs, your physical ability etc.) You really cannot prepare for this. No one truly knows what they will do if something like this were to happen. The best we can do is practice with our carry guns and prepare ourselves mentally that there may be a day that we have to use it and pray that day never comes.

[KingofChaos]

haos » Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:53 pm
But what if the mob is beating the snot out of defenseless people like they did in Wisconsin ? What should our rersponse if any be ?

I agree with everything that that Xtremeduty just said. I am also of the opinion that shooting at a mob will only get you bum-rushed, and I am only willing to intervene in conflicts where I think I have the tactical advantage, or in which I feel me not intervening would haunt me for the rest of my life(some mad gunman mowing down people). Also, he brings up a very good point in not knowing who the actual BG is. Honestly, that makes me very wary to get involved in conflicts at all, because my biggest fear with becoming involved is getting shot about someone else with a CHL. Most BGs don't practice and can't shoot to save their lives. LEO will more than likely orally address you and tell you to drop the weapon before opening fire, giving you a chance to explain. I feel like many CHL carriers would make a split decision based on the scene in front of them and just start shooting. I am, after all, a young minority with a gun. The oddest are heavily in favour of me being a BG, not a GG and opening fire would probably be the right decision most times. This forum tends to be propagated with individuals who take their CHL seriously and who put more time, effort, and thought into carrying and what they'd do. I don't think many members here would make that sort of mistake. Other people who I've met who carry don't seem to have taken these steps, and may very well get me killed.

[Texas Dan Mosby]

I've seen a few examples floating around, however, my personal use of deadly force ROE revolves around 3 criteria I believe to be in accordance with the law, and common sense, all of which must be met before I would use deadly force: 1)intent 2)ability 3)immediacy.

The "scenario" or "circumstances" do NOT matter to me, simply because the criteria is either met, or it isn't. Period. So be it one or more individuals, with or without weapons, youths, a gang of homicidal senior citizens, escaped monkeys, or whatever, either the criteria is met, or it is not. If the criteria is met, I will use deadly force to stop the threat, and if not, I won't.

Intent displayed to cause unlawful death or serious bodily injury?
- Verbal threats, hostile physical actions, predatory behaviors.
Ability to carry out the intent?
-Size/strength, numbers, use of tools / weapons
Immediacy
-Do I need to use deadly force NOW to stop the threat?
-Is it too late to escape, avoid, use less than lethal force, or use a barrier to stop the threat?

If the answer to all of the above is yes, then I feel confident in being able to justify the use of deadly force to stop a threat, regardless of scenario.

[KingofChaos]

I've seen a few examples floating around, however, my personal use of deadly force ROE revolves around 3 criteria I believe to be in accordance with the law, and common sense, all of which must be met before I would use deadly force: 1)intent 2)ability 3)immediacy.

The "scenario" or "circumstances" do NOT matter to me, simply because the criteria is either met, or it isn't. Period. So be it one or more individuals, with or without weapons, youths, a gang of homicidal senior citizens, escaped monkeys, or whatever, either the criteria is met, or it is not. If the criteria is met, I will use deadly force to stop the threat, and if not, I won't.

Intent displayed to cause unlawful death or serious bodily injury?
- Verbal threats, hostile physical actions, predatory behaviors.
Ability to carry out the intent?
-Size/strength, numbers, use of tools / weapons
Immediacy
-Do I need to use deadly force NOW to stop the threat?
-Is it too late to escape, avoid, use less than lethal force, or use a barrier to stop the threat?

If the answer to all of the above is yes, then I feel confident in being able to justify the use of deadly force to stop a threat, regardless of scenario.

How do you determine if the use of force is unlawful without considering the circumstances? It's easy if you're the victim, but what if it's a 3rd party?