FFL still running E-Check when i have a CHL holders

[Shasta]

I know less than nothing about the requirements of an FFL. I do know that my FFL for this viewtopic.php?f=20&t=37493" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; transaction is a member here. I live in Sugar Land, Phil lives in Sugar Land. Everything went off without a hitch, from my perspective.

[Beiruty]

9mmlover,

I am also born in Beirut and lucky enough I am not on the radar yet. However, I have nothing to hide or be afraid of. So, after "checks" life goes on.
I wonder why the gun was visible on the street? were you do the swap in public place i.e. on the street?
In your case, I would perfer to have all trades done or transfers to be done at an FFL, even if there would be an NICS check.

Thanks for sharing your story.

Good luck.

Im in Sugar Land, abut 20 miles south west of Houston. He lives right down the street from me.

the reason i ask is yesterday, while doing a gun trade with a guy i met on texas gun trader, Houston police drove by and saw the gun, and immediately approached us. I put my hands up before he could get out of the car and identified myself as a CHL holder with a weapon at 9oclock.

he disarmed me, then ran both parties IDs to check for warrants. next thing i know, there's 3 unmarked cars pulling up. BATFE agents. they run all the guns and one of them- one that belonged to the the other guy, came up as stolen from another state- but it was a false positive as the serial number was off 1 letter.

anyways while i was temporarily detained in the back of the squad car, and ATF agent came in and went to a website, and i recognized a date- it was my 18th birthday- the day i bought my first gun- a shotgun from academy, and it had what i am assuming to be an approval number for the 4473, and there was a column for FFL #. didnt say the make/model/serial number, but he basically had a list of every 4473 i ever filled out. there was about 8 or 9, the most recent being earlier this year, which went through the FFL in question.

in the end everything checked out and we were allowed to do our deal and go on our way. none the less im sure im on the ATFs radar because my first name is Mohammed, and i was born in Dubai, United Arab Emirates, but i moved here in 10th grade in 1999, and am a naturalized citizen. heck i havent left the country and ive lived in the same county-fort bend- since moving here.

i was surprised to see the ATF knows of every 4473 filled out and the name to go with it.

as a CHL holder, i thought all he was doing was filling out a spreadsheet of some sort for his records, but now that i think about it, he was doing an E-Check because after reading some stuff off the 4473, he would type it in, then im sure he got an NTN which he wrote onto the 4473 and signed it.

i will be looking for another FFL.

[jordanmills]

while doing a gun trade with a guy i met on texas gun trader, Houston police drove by and saw the gun,

how did the cop see the gun?
Concealed is concealed, even when doing a sale, unless you are in a store or other area to sell/buy weapons
I have done 2 'in car' sales of guns, you keep them low and out of sight, any more than that, you are not concealed.

Kind of hard to conceal a long gun. And it's not against the law to possess or display them in most places either.

[Teamless]

Kind of hard to conceal a long gun

Very true,
I guess as this is the CHL forum, I assume the gun is not a long gun.
And even if it is, I surely would try to do a sale in a location that would try not to cause any alarm with anyone.
However, the OP has not stated what type of gun (or I have overlooked it) and no ideas what precautions he took.
I mean really, I won't go to McD's parking lot to make this deal, but could go to any local mall, to the far corner of the lot and no one would see a thing.

[AEA]

I have made many, many transfers of both pistols and long guns in parking lots with members here (including Moderators).

Most of the time it is done on the tailgate of my pickup with the bed sides blocking the view of what we are doing.

In the case of a pistol, it is not visible to anyone but us until they buyer walks away with it in it's box and/or in a WalMart plastic bag.

In the case of a long gun, it may or may not be in a box and if not it makes no difference as there is no requirement to conceal.

[Domineaux]

One of the most common bits of advice when doing face to face transactions such as this or any buying/selling off Craigslist is to do so in a well lit, high traffic parking lot. I wouldn't aim for an area of said parking lot that completely negates this small added security measure.

[rm9792]

9mmlover,

I am also born in Beirut and lucky enough I am not on the radar yet. However, I have nothing to hide or be afraid of. So, after "checks" life goes on.
I wonder why the gun was visible on the street? were you do the swap in public place i.e. on the street?
In your case, I would perfer to have all trades done or transfers to be done at an FFL, even if there would be an NICS check.

What possible reason would you prefer he waste money on uneccessary fees and get records possibly in the system? (I fully believe the govt is keeping records.)

[Skydivesnake]

C'mon guys, do we really think the gov are NOT capturing NICs check data ? The fact it's against Federal law is irrelevant.

A question for FFLs; when you get your ATF audits, what does the auditor actually do ? Do they copy data off of 4473s during that audit ? If so, they are also capturing 4473 data there that wasn't dialled in during a NICs check (because the purchaser was a CHL).

[rm9792]

I dont think they have enough time to be capturing data during an audit.

[Oldgringo]

while doing a gun trade with a guy i met on texas gun trader, Houston police drove by and saw the gun,

how did the cop see the gun?
Concealed is concealed, even when doing a sale, unless you are in a store or other area to sell/buy weapons
I have done 2 'in car' sales of guns, you keep them low and out of sight, any more than that, you are not concealed.

What doesn't sound sinister about 'in car' sales of guns. What am I missing here?

I've never done an 'in car' sale of a gun. I do have fond memories of Drive-In movies many years ago.

[rm9792]

uhhmm, I do "in car" sales all the time. Do away with the "crime" of letting the public see it and I will do business in the open. I usually use the tailgate or open the trunk for inspections before a purchase or sale ftf. If people didnt pee their pants every time they saw a gun then it wouldnt be a big deal to use the hood of the car or table of a starbucks. Its a shame we are doing nothing illegal but have to commit subterfuge and feel as if we were dealing crack (which is ironically done in the open a lot).

[Teamless]

[quote="Oldgringo"What doesn't sound sinister about 'in car' sales of guns[/quote]
you are right, it sounds sinister, but it should not have to be that way.
While it is however, the parties involved need to use common sense and don't be drawing attention to the sale.

[v-rog]

The couple of purchases I have done has been mid-morning in the parking lot of a big retailer that had just opened for the day. That way the parking lot wasn't packed with people yet there was enough activity around to keep me comfortable.

[Oldgringo]

[quote="Oldgringo"What doesn't sound sinister about 'in car' sales of guns

you are right, it sounds sinister, but it should not have to be that way.
While it is however, the parties involved need to use common sense and don't be drawing attention to the sale.[/quote]

Now that I know what y'all are talking about, I've participated in a couple "outdoor" sales myself and yes, all parties arrived at the POS in vehicles. Hmmm?

[9mmLover]

the cops just rolled up and saw me standing outside my car bent in looking at something on the driver side, and saw the other party doing the same thing and just walked up on us and tapped me on the back.

before he uttered a word i put my hands on the roof of my explorer and identified to the officer that i have a CHL, and there is a firearm at my 9 oclock. he said just keep your hands where they are at, and he disarmed me and saw 2 firearms on my drivers seat, and 1 on the other parties drivers seat. then both of us were detained, he was left outside his car on the front bumper, and i was put in the back of the squad car. then they started asking question about whats going on, and i said this is just a standard firearm trade and i have done this many times and its not against the law.

i guess the reason he detained us is because there was so many firearms involved. i always choose a high traffic area when i do a transaction, and the cop mentions this is a high drug area. it was off a major US highway and a major intersection in houston- not some run down neighborhood.

out of no where 3 unmarked cars pull in, and one of the guys identified himself as an ATF agent, and presented his credentials. then they ran my name against something in the squad car computer and saw one date that ill never forget- my 18th birthday- i bought a shotgun that day from walmart. this was when clinton was still in office, and the election was a month away. the list showed what im assuming is every transaction i have done via an ffl and a form 4473 because it showed a column with an FFL # and a date. i stopped paying attention after that.

he then ran the serials on all the guns, and one came up as 'stolen from an FFL'- if belonged to the other party that i was trading with- but then he ran it against the NICS database and nothing came up. he said the numbers were off by one letter- the stolen gun had an 'E' on it and the gun i was trading had an 'X' on it- he said it might have been put in as an E because the person who entered it might have thought the X, EXRAY, was an E. he said 99.9% the gun is not stolen and that i can go ahead with the transaction.

after that me and the other party added to the bill of sale, that IF the gun comes up stolen, and i have to surrender it to the ATF, he will refund my money. the bill of sale shows it wasnt my gun and that all the liability is on the other party. the ATF agent confirmed that before i went ahead and did the trade.

anyways it surprised me that they have a list of transactions. i always do put my social security number on there since im a naturalized citizen, and other than speeding tickets, i have nothing on my record, but i put it on there just for the heck of it. but i think its my TXDL that was used to pull that information up.

he will be contacting me this week with a 100% answer on the status of the firearm. ill be asking him about the list he pulled up too. it didnt cross my mind when i was in the back of a hot squad car.