Defense of Dog?

[Bulldog1911]

And if someone walks up to you and takes a hatchet to your dog, or clubs it over the head, or shoots it, how do you know you're not the next target?

Valid point. In that situation, my response would be different.

Really? Regardless of the "human?" Someone, say, out on parole, for rape, murder, assault, home invasion...etc?

Not necessarily, but how would you know. Did the guy attacking my dog come up and say, "Hi I'm joe, a convicted rapist and murderer." And then turn around and take a hatchet to my dog? If so, my response would be different. But I've never heard of anyone volunteering that information.
Guess it depends on who the human is????

Bulldog1911 wrote:Another dog attacking your dog, sure. But if that dog was owned by someone else, they will probably sue you for shooting their dog. So, are you willing to fight that in court?
IANAL

This a rhetorical question, or are you saying you'd let another dog kill your dog so you wouldn't risk being sued?

Just something for the OP to think about.

To each his own, and no disrespect stated, implied or intended to those that feel that way.

Agree 100%. I know people that think of their pets as their kids and treat them as such. That's just not me. I have my kids, and I have my dogs. Love them all, but my kids are miles and miles ahead of the animals. Just me. Don't mean to offend anyone that feels differently.

[Bulldog1911]

...did you read the law I cited??? if you follow that law, you are not liable for damages to the dog you shot...

No sorry. My bad. But, doesn't mean they won't try.

[speedsix]

...I've had to kick unleashed bigger dogs off my terrier/dachshund mix who WAS on a leash twice...both attacks were totally unprovoked and on the sidewalk in front of my home...one had previously attacked two other dogs...one being held in his owner's arms...I kicked both dogs several times as hard as I could with steel-toed boots and they finally quit coming back...the only reason I didn't shoot the bigger one was that his pre-teen owner was down the block screaming for him to come back...and I didn't want to kill him in front of her...neither was tagged, collared, or leashed... one I never saw again...the above repeat offender's owner is a neighbor, and we had a short, loud discussion about it...he's now tagged, collared, and leashed when he's out...being sued, even if the law wouldn't have prevented it, wouldn't have slowed me down a bit...I love my dog...keep yours under control and off of him!!!

...Bulldog 1911...they might TRY to fly...wouldn't change my life, decisions, or actions...try don't getcha no pie!!!

[The Annoyed Man]

My dog is a member of my family, hang the consequences, and I wouldn't do any less for him than I would for my wife or son. If a human attacked my dog, it would very quickly become an attack on me, as I would insert myself between my dog and the attacker in order to protect my dog. From that point on, whether the other guy get's shot depends very much on whether he pursues the attack against me or he backs off. Ditto for another dog attacking my dog. But no man or dog is going to attack my dog without either backing down, or suffering the consequences. Nowhere in the law is it written that I have to submit to someone attacking either me, or my dog. Whether or not use of deadly force becomes necessary is entirely dependent upon the attacker.

I leave no wiggle room there. I don't care if my dog first bit somebody (he's not like that). If my dog is the problem, then the authorities will deal with it. But I won't permit vigilante justice to be used against anyone in my family. Period.

[speedsix]

...no offense, TAM, but the law I quoted gives authority for a person to shoot the dog who's done the wrong...in that case, you'd be breaking the law to try to keep him from KEEPING the law...and he's NOT a vigilante, following that law...

[threoh8]

I'm not sure I could distinguish, at speed, an attack on my dog from an attack on me and mine. Even out in the yard and away from the owner, neutralizing the dog is a classic preparation for raiding a home. I will not play dog- or people- psychologist on the fly nor is a reasonable person expected to do so.

[Bulldog1911]

So here is a scenario:

TAM is walking in front of my house. My dog goes after TAM. TAM, of coarse, defends himself and retaliates on my dog. I hear the commotion, run outside and see (what appears to me to be) TAM assaulting my dog. Some of you are saying that I should draw my weapon and fire? After all, he could be a felon out on parole, right?

I agree with TAM that I would try to physically separate the the attacker from my dog. Then if he attacks me, it would escalate from there.

[wrinkles]

You should have your dog restrained or fenced in. If you don't then you have to right to defend the animal if it's attacking somebody on public property. JMO

[KingofChaos]

I feel like these scenarios are getting more and more ridiculous. If someone is walking into my yard with a hatchet, I'm going to ask him what he's doing and tell him to stop moving. If he doesn't comply with either of those, you'd be justified in defending yourself before the dog even got involved. And if you just walk outside and see someone attacking your dog, your first response is likely to yell at them. Once you yell I see three possible things happening. 1.They turn tail and run away. 2. They yell back at you that your dog bite them 3. They attack you. In the first case, if you chase him down and physically engage him, I'm pretty sure that would count as assault. Option two, I think the reasonable thing would be to following TAM's example and separate the dog and the person. It seems that you'd be justified in clocking him over the head once or twice to get him to stop, but he'd be just as legal attacking your dog, which is what speed is trying to stress; so who knows what happens once the police get there. Maybe the officer tells you both to talk it over, maybe he takes the homeowner for a ride? Furthermore, if you do decide to attack the the person attacking your dog and it escalates into a legitimate usage of deadly force the letter of the law protects you, but do you want a grand jury deciding whether you go to trial? They may not be so sympathetic, nor the jury in the criminal case. All they may see the situation as is you shot a person who was defending himself from your out of control dog. Another scenario that no ones mentioned yet, and which I think Speed will appreciate, is the "attackers" legal ability to use deadly force. You physically intervene against a man who was potentially breaking no laws, and assault him. From the attackers point of view homeowner + dog could easily equate deadly force, and he decides to use deadly force of his own to stop what he "reasonably believes" to be your use of unlawful deadly force. Now you and your dog are both have injuries which are potentiality life threatening. It just all seems a bit risky IMO. Restraining the dog and questioning the person seems like the most prudent course of action, not just instantly reacting. Option 3 doesn't even need to be discussed.

[VMI77]

Really? Regardless of the "human?" Someone, say, out on parole, for rape, murder, assault, home invasion...etc?

Not necessarily, but how would you know. Did the guy attacking my dog come up and say, "Hi I'm joe, a convicted rapist and murderer." And then turn around and take a hatchet to my dog? If so, my response would be different. But I've never heard of anyone volunteering that information.
Guess it depends on who the human is????

Most likely, you wouldn't know. You expressed a principle --that the lives of all "human beings" have value and that this value is always greater than the value of a dog's life. I was just trying to determine if you really intended to be taken literally. Without getting into a discussion about "value," I don't believe that all human lives have value. In fact, I think some some people's lives may have a negative value --that the "world," so to speak, would be better off without them.

[KingofChaos]

Really? Regardless of the "human?" Someone, say, out on parole, for rape, murder, assault, home invasion...etc?

Not necessarily, but how would you know. Did the guy attacking my dog come up and say, "Hi I'm joe, a convicted rapist and murderer." And then turn around and take a hatchet to my dog? If so, my response would be different. But I've never heard of anyone volunteering that information.
Guess it depends on who the human is????

Most likely, you wouldn't know. You expressed a principle --that the lives of all "human beings" have value and that this value is always greater than the value of a dog's life. I was just trying to determine if you really intended to be taken literally. Without getting into a discussion about "value," I don't believe that all human lives have value. In fact, I think some some people's lives may have a negative value --that the "world," so to speak, would be better off without them.

And you get to decide on the value? Will you also be executioner?

[sugar land dave]

And you get to decide on the value? Will you also be executioner?

Looking at the looting, burning, and personal attacks committed in the London riots and by criminals here and elsewhere, you do not want to ask me those questions. The same planet that creates monsters also creates those that will defend against the monsters.

[KingofChaos]

And you get to decide on the value? Will you also be executioner?

Looking at the looting, burning, and personal attacks committed in the London riots and by criminals here and elsewhere, you do not want to ask me those questions. The same planet that creates monsters also creates those that will defend against the monsters.

I feel the line between them and us is thin and usually made entirely of things we had no control over. People often give themselves far too much credit for their success, and think other people could have just done what they did. Everyone is responsible for their actions, but necessarily response for the circumstances or environment of those actions. So to distance yourself from other human beings and treat them like vermin just comes across as asinine to me. All it could have taken is your father getting laid off instead of some other stranger, and you'd be just like those "monsters". Instead I say hit them over the head a few time, hope they learn their lesson, then rinse and repeat. I'd rather have jails full of repeat offenders than a warehouse of execution chambers. This is America after all.

[paulhailes]

So here is a scenario:

TAM is walking in front of my house. My dog goes after TAM. TAM, of coarse, defends himself and retaliates on my dog. I hear the commotion, run outside and see (what appears to me to be) TAM assaulting my dog. Some of you are saying that I should draw my weapon and fire? After all, he could be a felon out on parole, right?

I agree with TAM that I would try to physically separate the the attacker from my dog. Then if he attacks me, it would escalate from there.

But you would not be justified in your use of deadly force since your dog was the attacker. Charles talked about knowing the whole story in his deadly force seminar, if you didnt see the start of the conflict then you really don't know who the aggressor is.

If I were in that situation I would try get my dog away for TAM and then find out what happened.

My question was referring to a situation where the person was the aggressor not my dog. Like if I'm walking my dog and some nut walks up and starts kicking my dog for no reason.

[KingofChaos]

So here is a scenario:

TAM is walking in front of my house. My dog goes after TAM. TAM, of coarse, defends himself and retaliates on my dog. I hear the commotion, run outside and see (what appears to me to be) TAM assaulting my dog. Some of you are saying that I should draw my weapon and fire? After all, he could be a felon out on parole, right?

I agree with TAM that I would try to physically separate the the attacker from my dog. Then if he attacks me, it would escalate from there.

But you would not be justified in your use of deadly force since your dog was the attacker. Charles talked about knowing the whole story in his deadly force seminar, if you didnt see the start of the conflict then you really don't know who the aggressor is.

If I were in that situation I would try get my dog away for TAM and then find out what happened.

My question was referring to a situation where the person was the aggressor not my dog. Like if I'm walking my dog and some nut walks up and starts kicking my dog for no reason.

Penal code seems to be pretty clear that force, not deadly force, would be okay.