Is this sign legal?

[Mr.ViperBoa]

The way I have always thought of it 'in view of the public" should mean outside where the public is before going in. I guess I am weird that way

[apostate]

The way I have always thought of it 'in view of the public" should mean outside where the public is before going in. I guess I am weird that way

I take it to mean displayed in an area visible to the public, as opposed to inside the restaurant kitchen or a back office, for example. Consider that Texas Government Code 411.204 says "shall prominently display at each entrance to the business premises a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c)." That's not the requirement for 30.06 notice.

Interestingly, I know a 51% establishment that posts the 51% sign behind the bar. Does that mean it's legal to carry there, since TPC 46.035(k) has a defense if "not given effective notice under Section 411.204, Government Code."

[C-dub]

Interestingly, I know a 51% establishment that posts the 51% sign behind the bar. Does that mean it's legal to carry there, since TPC 46.035(k) has a defense if "not given effective notice under Section 411.204, Government Code."

No. Whether there is a sign posted or not it is still illegal. This part is different than 30.06 in that if there is no 30.06 sign in a place not otherwise prohibited it is not illegal. Not having a 51% sign or not having one in a conspicuous place can only be a defense to prosecution.

[apostate]

Interestingly, I know a 51% establishment that posts the 51% sign behind the bar. Does that mean it's legal to carry there, since TPC 46.035(k) has a defense if "not given effective notice under Section 411.204, Government Code."

No. Whether there is a sign posted or not it is still illegal. This part is different than 30.06 in that if there is no 30.06 sign in a place not otherwise prohibited it is not illegal. Not having a 51% sign or not having one in a conspicuous place can only be a defense to prosecution.

30.05(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden; and
(2) the person was carrying a concealed handgun and a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category the person was carrying.

[Kythas]

Interestingly, I know a 51% establishment that posts the 51% sign behind the bar. Does that mean it's legal to carry there, since TPC 46.035(k) has a defense if "not given effective notice under Section 411.204, Government Code."

No. Whether there is a sign posted or not it is still illegal. This part is different than 30.06 in that if there is no 30.06 sign in a place not otherwise prohibited it is not illegal. Not having a 51% sign or not having one in a conspicuous place can only be a defense to prosecution.

30.05(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden; and
(2) the person was carrying a concealed handgun and a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category the person was carrying.

That's for criminal trespass and has nothing to do with the 51% establishment prohibition.

It's been stated in previous threads that the onus is on the CHL holder to know if a place is 51% or not. Even if they have wrongly posted the blue unlicensed possession sign but are, in fact, 51%, a CHL holder would be in trouble carrying there.

[RottenApple]

It's been stated in previous threads that the onus is on the CHL holder to know if a place is 51% or not. Even if they have wrongly posted the blue unlicensed possession sign but are, in fact, 51%, a CHL holder would be in trouble carrying there.

IANAL, but that doesn't seem right to me. GC 411.204 is very clear that the business is required to place the sign in order to give appropriate notice.

GC §411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES.
(a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the business premises a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c).

(c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must give notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a person licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the premises. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height and must include on its face the number "51" printed in solid red at least five inches in height. The sign shall be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

So it seems to me that it is a defense to prosecution if the business did not post a sign or posted it incorrectly.

[apostate]

That's for criminal trespass

Precisely! It's a "defense to prosecution" if you walk past a gunbuster sign or enter a 51% establishment that's not properly posted.

[C-dub]

That's for criminal trespass

Precisely! It's a "defense to prosecution" if you walk past a gunbuster sign or enter a 51% establishment that's not properly posted.

Yup. Someone that has done this has broken the law. They are no longer innocent until proven guilty, they've already been proven guilty. It is now up to them to prove the "defense to prosecution" part that the sign was either improperly posted or not posted at all.

[KDD]

Sign is not compliant

[tbrown]

Yup. Someone that has done this has broken the law. They are no longer innocent until proven guilty, they've already been proven guilty. It is now up to them to prove the "defense to prosecution" part that the sign was either improperly posted or not posted at all.

Proven guilty by who? And of what? What's the crime if the sign is not compliant or not posted where required?

[C-dub]

Yup. Someone that has done this has broken the law. They are no longer innocent until proven guilty, they've already been proven guilty. It is now up to them to prove the "defense to prosecution" part that the sign was either improperly posted or not posted at all.

Proven guilty by who? And of what? What's the crime if the sign is not compliant or not posted where required?

An establishment that can legally post a red 51% sign does not require a sign to be off limits. That's a fact. It is not like WalMart, that must post a 30.06 sign to be off limits. Not having a 51% sign properly displayed is a defense to prosecution. This means that if you were carrying and were arrested for it you will have to prove that the sign was not posted or not posted properly as a defense to prosecution.

I've never seen one of these signs, but I stopped going out to places that will have one long before they existed.

Oh, and BTW, IANAL so I could be wrong on this, but I don't think so.

[tbrown]

Proven guilty by who? And of what? What's the crime if the sign is not compliant or not posted where required?

An establishment that can legally post a red 51% sign does not require a sign to be off limits. That's a fact. It is not like WalMart, that must post a 30.06 sign to be off limits. Not having a 51% sign properly displayed is a defense to prosecution. This means that if you were carrying and were arrested for it you will have to prove that the sign was not posted or not posted properly as a defense to prosecution.

If a company posts a gunbuster sign or some other sign prohibiting guns, carrying past the sign is criminal trespass. Having a CHL for the category handgun you're carrying is a defense to prosecution.

[C-dub]

Proven guilty by who? And of what? What's the crime if the sign is not compliant or not posted where required?

An establishment that can legally post a red 51% sign does not require a sign to be off limits. That's a fact. It is not like WalMart, that must post a 30.06 sign to be off limits. Not having a 51% sign properly displayed is a defense to prosecution. This means that if you were carrying and were arrested for it you will have to prove that the sign was not posted or not posted properly as a defense to prosecution.

If a company posts a gunbuster sign or some other sign prohibiting guns, carrying past the sign is criminal trespass. Having a CHL for the category handgun you're carrying is a defense to prosecution.

A CHL walking past a gunbuster sign is nothing. A CHL walking past a gunbuster sign, being discovered, and then not leaving is criminal trespass in addition to possible failure to conceal.

[tbrown]

A CHL walking past a gunbuster sign is nothing.

If so, then a CHL walking into a bar that's not properly posted is also nothing.

A defense to prosecution is a defense to prosecution is a defense to prosecution.

[C-dub]

A CHL walking past a gunbuster sign is nothing.

If so, then a CHL walking into a bar that's not properly posted is also nothing.

A defense to prosecution is a defense to prosecution is a defense to prosecution.

Where's a facepalm when you need one?

C'mon legal people. Help me out here or set me straight.