Assault Rifle

[KinnyLee]

OK, Betsy is taken for mine.....name your whatever you like!

I will name mine Christy.

[stevie_d_64]

My "Pre-Ban" is named Raquel...Because it was just right from the start...

My "AWB Post-Ban" is named Pamela...Because it has required a lot of "re-work"...

I'm just glad they both shoot really well...No problems, and they work well together...

Just don't tell my wife...I be in big heap trouble kimosabe, if one of them wasn't named "Esther"...

[GlockenHammer]

Personally, I have no "assault rifles." I do, however, have Sport-Utility Rifles.

I love that one! I may have to use that again!

[casselthief]

Very good thread. I'm learning a lot. (More of a handgun girl, since that's what I can hide. )

Nah, you just need a bigger trench coat.

all right, Trench Coat Mafia

[WheySmart]

My question to you is...
"What definition of 'assault rifle' do you feel is most accurate?"

None of them.

"Assault rifle" and "assault weapon" are emotionally- and politically-charged terms with no real meaning, beyond what someone wishes them to mean.

If I extended the bayonet on my M-N M44 --five round capacity, bolt action-- and performed a "thrust and butt stroke" on you, I'm pretty certain that you'd feel you'd been assaulted.

I have a Winchester Model 62, inherited from my father and grandfather. It's hardly modern technology. There's no trigger disconnect: hold the trigger back, and it will fire as fast as you can work the slide (which is pretty darn fast). At short range, I could put a dozen Stingers into the target's vitals quicker than most shooters could place three aimed rounds with an AR/M-something.

"Assault" is a crime, not a type of firearm.

Kevin

I know the term depends on what it is being used for but it wasn't originally ment to be a biased term....look at it in that light instead of thinking of it as a completely liberally biased phrase, I am talking about the Ak-47 and M-16 type things...they are obviously different from rifles and pistols...what are the actually rules for being in the middle category? This is the type of response I was trying to avoid, it is stamped out and no thought is involved.

[Mithras61]

Generally (to me), an assault rifle is one that has three positions on its fire selector - safe, semi-automatic and automatic.

Some folks think the AKs and ARs available these days are assault rifles, but unless they fire both semi- and fully automatic, they aren't (and no, being able to squeeze off a single round on a weapon designed for fully automatic fire doesn't count...). Yes, the ammo carries some weight, but if it isn't selective firing, it isn't an assault rifle.

[Liberty]

Generally (to me), an assault rifle is one that has three positions on its fire selector - safe, semi-automatic and automatic.

Some folks think the AKs and ARs available these days are assault rifles, but unless they fire both semi- and fully automatic, they aren't (and no, being able to squeeze off a single round on a weapon designed for fully automatic fire doesn't count...). Yes, the ammo carries some weight, but if it isn't selective firing, it isn't an assault rifle.

would it be fair to call such rifles "Wannabee Assault Weapons"

[Mithras61]

Generally (to me), an assault rifle is one that has three positions on its fire selector - safe, semi-automatic and automatic.

Some folks think the AKs and ARs available these days are assault rifles, but unless they fire both semi- and fully automatic, they aren't (and no, being able to squeeze off a single round on a weapon designed for fully automatic fire doesn't count...). Yes, the ammo carries some weight, but if it isn't selective firing, it isn't an assault rifle.

would it be fair to call such rifles "Wannabee Assault Weapons"

I suppose that with some advanced smithing (or even a good lower receiver) they could become an assault rifle, so I guess "wannabees" is about right.

[WheySmart]

Actually I read an article about a machinist who was manufacturing the full-auto receiver and selling them on the black market...got caught and, as the story goes, he is serving about 15 years.

It has to be based on ammo too though since guns like the BAR can fire...wait, it has full auto and slow auto...does that count as selective fire? It fires a full power .30-06 rifle round so it dosn't meet ammo requirements, but does that firing capablility count? What does burst fire count as?

Ok, guns like the Thompson can fire semi-auto and full-auto. It COULD be considered an assault rifle but is obviosly different from an AK, the ammo is a very important part of the definition.

[GlockenHammer]

I like the fact thet Wikipedia uses this definition:
An assault rifle is an automatic rifle or carbine firing ammunition with muzzle energies intermediate between those typical of pistol and battle rifle ammunition. Assault rifles are categorized between light machine guns that are intended more for sustained automatic fire in a support role, and smaller submachine guns that fire a handgun cartridge rather than a rifle cartridge. Assault rifles are the standard small arms in most modern armies, having largely replaced or supplemented larger, more powerful battle rifles, such as the World War II-era M1 Garand and Tokarev SVT. Examples of assault rifles include the M16 rifle and the AK-47. Semi-automatic rifles, including commercial versions of the AR-15, are not assault rifles as they lack the capability for automatic fire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle

[G.C.Montgomery]

Actually I read an article about a machinist who was manufacturing the full-auto receiver and selling them on the black market...got caught and, as the story goes, he is serving about 15 years.

It has to be based on ammo too though since guns like the BAR can fire...wait, it has full auto and slow auto...does that count as selective fire? It fires a full power .30-06 rifle round so it dosn't meet ammo requirements, but does that firing capablility count? What does burst fire count as?

Ok, guns like the Thompson can fire semi-auto and full-auto. It COULD be considered an assault rifle but is obviosly different from an AK, the ammo is a very important part of the definition.

Actually, the BAR is considered a "light" machinegun. Seems like later models only fired full-auto. And the Thompson, being a pistol caliber firearm, is called a "sub-machinegun." Neither, in that case, could really be called an "assault rifle."

[WheySmart]

Actually I read an article about a machinist who was manufacturing the full-auto receiver and selling them on the black market...got caught and, as the story goes, he is serving about 15 years.

It has to be based on ammo too though since guns like the BAR can fire...wait, it has full auto and slow auto...does that count as selective fire? It fires a full power .30-06 rifle round so it dosn't meet ammo requirements, but does that firing capablility count? What does burst fire count as?

Ok, guns like the Thompson can fire semi-auto and full-auto. It COULD be considered an assault rifle but is obviosly different from an AK, the ammo is a very important part of the definition.

Actually, the BAR is considered a "light" machinegun. Seems like later models only fired full-auto. And the Thompson, being a pistol caliber firearm, is called a "sub-machinegun." Neither, in that case, could really be called an "assault rifle."

Yes, exactly. That is why neither count as assault rifles...don't fire the intermediate round, it is an important aspect to consider when categorizing a weapon.

[stevie_d_64]

You really mean that the BAR I have is a light machine-gun???

[Mithras61]

Actually I read an article about a machinist who was manufacturing the full-auto receiver and selling them on the black market...got caught and, as the story goes, he is serving about 15 years.

It has to be based on ammo too though since guns like the BAR can fire...wait, it has full auto and slow auto...does that count as selective fire? It fires a full power .30-06 rifle round so it dosn't meet ammo requirements, but does that firing capablility count? What does burst fire count as?

Ok, guns like the Thompson can fire semi-auto and full-auto. It COULD be considered an assault rifle but is obviosly different from an AK, the ammo is a very important part of the definition.

Actually, the BAR is considered a "light" machinegun. Seems like later models only fired full-auto. And the Thompson, being a pistol caliber firearm, is called a "sub-machinegun." Neither, in that case, could really be called an "assault rifle."

Yes, exactly. That is why neither count as assault rifles...don't fire the intermediate round, it is an important aspect to consider when categorizing a weapon.

Some of the several models of Thompson are either fully auto only or semi-auto only, in which case they wouldn't qualify under my definition, but you are correct that many of the models are select fire.


M1927 with 50 rounds drum (semiauto, new manufacture, with 16" barrel)
(source: http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg29-e.htm)

The Thompson is considered by some to be an early model of assault rifle (very similar to those developed by the Russian Col. Federov & Germans with the MP43 and early MP44 in the '30s) that was abandoned for other models that were more reliable, or fired cartridges that were effective at longer ranges (up to 600 yards), or that had a more controllable recoil (and thus better accuracy) like the AK47 and AR15/M16/M4. I would argue that it is more of a hybrid weapon or an experimental design in the earlier development phases of the form. In a way, asking if the Thompson is an assault rifle or a submachine gun or a machine pistol is sort of like asking if the rapier is a short sword or a long sword.

Since the developers also went to smaller caliber rounds (typically 5.56mm or 7.62mm) at the same time, I suppose that the bullet caliber could be considered PART of the definition, but my personal opinion is that the select fire property is a primary property, and the caliber of the rounds used is a secondary property that was adopted to enhance the effectiveness of the design.

As to the BAR, I bet anyone shot with one feels assaulted...

But seriously, the BAR shoots only slow burst/fast burst (approx. 450 or 600 rpm), not semi-auto, and therefore fails to qualify under the disputed definition. If it had a semi-auto mode in addition to the ones mentioned...

[WheySmart]

The Thompson is considered by some to be an early model of assault rifle (very similar to those developed by the Russian Col. Federov & Germans with the MP43 and early MP44 in the '30s) that was abandoned for other models that were more reliable, or fired cartridges that were effective at longer ranges (up to 600 yards), or that had a more controllable recoil (and thus better accuracy) like the AK47 and AR15/M16/M4. I would argue that it is more of a hybrid weapon or an experimental design in the earlier development phases of the form. In a way, asking if the Thompson is an assault rifle or a submachine gun or a machine pistol is sort of like asking if the rapier is a short sword or a long sword.


As to the BAR, I bet anyone shot with one feels assaulted...

But seriously, the BAR shoots only slow burst/fast burst (approx. 450 or 600 rpm), not semi-auto, and therefore fails to qualify under the disputed definition. If it had a semi-auto mode in addition to the ones mentioned...

You are wrong in stating the mp43/44 was developed that early, they were made during the middle-later part of the war (around 1942, were not issued to troops until late 1943.) and they are also the same gun. It is still a mystery as to why they changed the name to mp44, mp43's and mp44's are identical...wierd huh?

When you state a change in cartridge are you really stating caliber? The first really successful assault rifle was the AK47 and it's design is made to "work" at ranges up to 300yds where normal combat takes place, in order to reduce recoil one tihng that would help would be to decrease the charge, not increase...I think you must be speaking of the change from the mp44's 7.92mm slug and the smaller 5.56mm and 7.62mm, correc tme if I am mistaken.

And thats the reaosn I changed my example tot he Thompson, the BAR lacks semi-auto.

Sources:
Small Arms of World War II by Chris Chant