Proper CH *size*

[Jumping Frog]

maybe this will help... imagine a BB fired from a classic Red Ryder BB gun, which moves at 280 ft/sec (that's just over 190 mph). Imagine that thing hitting you and how it will feel... I think most of us have been shot by a BB gun before :). Then imagine a locomotive moving at 19 mph (10% of the speed of the BB). Which do you think will "overpenetrate"? ;) The point of that analogy is to take two extremes and compare them. The locomotive has a thousands of tons of mass, and moving slowly will still demolish any living thing in its path because of the amount of force applied. The BB leaves a nice red mark and *might* draw blood... but will rarely even penetrate the skin, again because of the force applied. These are two extremes... now imagine two things in the middle of this spectrum. a .380 round and a .45 round. The 45 moves a lot slower but has a lot more mass. The .380 has very little mass comparatively, but is moving much more quickly. That lighter weight is compensated for by the speed... resulting in similar amounts of force for each.

I'll tell you what. Assume a hypothetical situation where you and I agree to square in a gun fight on Main Street at 25 paces. I'll let you shoot the frangible .380, but I'll stick with my Winchester Ranger T .45 ACP +P (RA45TP).

The ballistics of some ammo I just picked up (RCBO?) in .45 is insane - 2200 ft/sec muzzle velocity and 815-ish lb/ft of force applied to the target at 15 yards. And that's a 90 grain load.

Link?

Never heard of 90 grain .45 ACP.

[G.A. Heath]

This stuff is made by RBCD and has some questionable capabilities.
Manufacturer's product information: http://www.rbcd.net/Personal%20Defense-%20Ammo.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Supposedly this has some insane velocities and some amazing damage potential, however they list it as a TFSP (Total Fragmenting Soft Point) which does cause me some concern about its effectiveness.

[speedsix]

...not to beat it to death, but their own chart shows inadequate penetration with the .380 round...8"...

[djjoshuad]

I think this has gotten out of control... my point was not that a frangible round is better than a JHP. So, I'm not going to rebut that argument. I was also not saying that it was perfect in every scenario, so I'm not arguing that either. The ammo I'm talking about has a frangible CORE, not a fully frangible bullet. It's a bit like the Blazer rounds that have a mini shotshell in the middle. I also don't think that shooting through a car door or window is a good motivation for buying heavy-penetration rounds. I do have a .357sig that I carry in my truck (loaded with speer gold dots), just in case I need to do that... but if I'm not in the truck, I can't imagine needing to fire into someone else's vehicle for self-defense. None of that has anything to do with my original point anyway.

I'm not going to argue about this any more. I was simply trying to say that you can properly equip a .380 so that it is a much better SD weapon. Personally, I carry a .45 - I just don't think it's fair to argue that a .380 is never going to be effective. I was trying to spread some knowledge about a new type of ammo that is proving itself to be an excellent SD round. I don't have anything to gain from their sales, I just thought some people would like to know about it. This discussion has gone a different direction, so I'll just bow out and hope you guys who are interested do go look it up and see if it's right for you. If you're not interested... then I'm ok with that too.

[RAM4171]

I agree with bigger hole theory. My M&P 45c weighs less than 2lbs loaded and carrying it in my Sheilded holster conceals just fine with a tshirt and shorts.
FWIW GT distributers sell 230 gr. Gold Dot 45's in boxes of 50 for $25.99, and when I shot them into water jugs they expanded to around .75"(i've got to see to believe)
Carry what you feel comfortable with. It's a personal decision that each person has to deal with.
I'm just sayin'
I do however carry a .38spl or .380 or 9mm as a second gun. I do have two hands you know

[mgood]

I was trying to spread some knowledge about a new type of ammo that is proving itself to be an excellent SD round.

Believe it or not, most of us appreciate that. We just like to turn things inside out and examine them from all angles.
Someone says some new thingamajig is better, you've suddenly got a bunch of us wanting proof, as well as defending the old thingamajigs we've trusted for years. I don't think anyone's attacking you personally, but gun owners are an opinionated bunch. And stopping power has been debated forever and will continue to be debated for the forseeable future. When you present a new bullet as being better than older designs, it just opens a new chapter in the debate. Nothing wrong with that. We all learn from the discussion. Maybe in time this frangible core bullet will prove to be the greatest man-stopper ever invented. Or maybe it will be a flop. Until it's been in common use for a decade or so, there just won't be that much evidence one way or the other. And we'll continue to debate Strasbourg goat tests, one-shot stop percentages, performance in bare ballistic gelatin, performance in ballistic gelatin after passing through various bariers such as clothing, sheetrock, and car windows, performance in water, performance in wet phone books, you name it.

If you wrestle a pig in the mud, you'll get dirty and eventually figure out that the pig enjoys it.
If you debate terminal ballistics with a bunch of gun nuts, you'll find that we enjoy the debate and that some will question your conclusions. That doesn't mean we don't want you to continue throwing ideas out there.

[drjoker]

So, my question is this: Are you like me? In other words, the self defense pistol choice varies greatly, so I have many different pistols for many different
scenarios? It's clear that a "one size fits all" world isn't realistic, so I try to dress/carry/accommodate accordingly.

I carry 1911 .45 ACP pistols....

My "mouse gun" is a 5 shot .38... I don't leave my "safe" (low frequency of really bad stuff) neighborhood with just that pea shooter.

That laziness is why I don't own a .380. If I did, I'd sometimes carry it. If I needed to use it, I'd kick myself for not carrying something more capable for the rest of my life, which in that situation might well be measured in seconds.

Errr... from the 1920's to the early 1990's, the 38 special revolver has been what police departments used as their "standard issue" gun. Until 1956, USAF aircrews were issued 38 special revolvers with tracers to signal rescuers and for self-defense. In other words, this was not a "pea shooter" but a formidable military and police weapon for over 70 years.

The .380 ACP has roughly the same stopping power as the 38 special +P. I find this odd since .380 has 200 ft-lbs of energy while .38 special has 350 ft-lbs of energy. The stopping power assessment is from those dubious "one shot stop" statistics.

I live in a safe neighborhood and I have security guards at work, so I normally don't carry. I don't even have guns at home. However, when I do carry, it's usually just a .380 Kel-Tec P3AT or a Ruger LCP. I've been wanting to increase my "firepower", so, I'm currently looking for a 38 special revolver as a BUG to the .380. The only time I carry something with more oomph is if I'm out dining on BBQ in South Dallas/Oak Cliff at night. Then, I carry the 9mm Glock 19. I think a 38 special revolver would also make a great BUG for the Glock 19.

So, what you're saying is a "pea shooter", I'm actually going to buy to increase my "firepower".

[speedsix]

...hadn't bothered to look at those "dubious" statistics in awhile...dug 'em out and immediately got distracted down to the .45ACP tables...life is sweet there... http://www.familyfriendsfirearms.com/St ... istics.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;