Proper CH *size*

[03Lightningrocks]

That laziness is why I don't own a .380. If I did, I'd sometimes carry it. If I needed to use it, I'd kick myself for not carrying something more capable for the rest of my life, which in that situation might well be measured in seconds.

Quoting the famous Jeff Cooper:

As we used to teach in the spook business, carry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it you may shoot it. If you shoot it you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody - and he finds out about it - he may be very angry with you.

[kjolly]

You can get some nice mouse guns in 9mm. They are a little snappy to shoot however gives you a better self defense caliber.
I carry a Kel Tec P-11 (12+1) 9mm in either a Desantis pocket holster or a shoulder houster.

[mgood]

Carry the largest gun you can adequately conceal in the most powerful caliber you can shoot well.

The largest gun you can conceal may change depending on how you're dressed that day. It's nice to have the luxury of several handguns to choose from when getting dressed. If you can only have one, get one that will conceal in just about any clothing you might wear.

Some compromises will be made, both in how much gun you can carry and in how you will dress to conceal that gun.

[djjoshuad]

IMO, ammo selection is just as important as caliber selection. a 9mm with some solid (expensive) self-protection rounds is far more deadly than a .45 with ball ammo or even a wal-mart hollow point. The ballistics of some ammo I just picked up (RCBO?) in .45 is insane - 2200 ft/sec muzzle velocity and 815-ish lb/ft of force applied to the target at 15 yards. And that's a 90 grain load. It's a soft hollow point with a frangible lead core that makes it feed better in an SA pistol, stop better when it hits the target, and spread out like crazy, doing a lot more internal damage. Of course, it's over $40 for a box of 20... definitely not something I can afford to practice with regularly.

That same ammo in .380 is going to hit just as hard and do just as much damage as generic WWB JHP .45, according to ballistics studies. Of course, my .45 Kimber using that ammo is still a better choice... but if I had to conceal an LCP-sized weapon and had the right ammo for it, I would not be any less confident in my "stopping power" :)

[mgood]

IMO, ammo selection is just as important as caliber selection. a 9mm with some solid (expensive) self-protection rounds is far more deadly than a .45 with ball ammo or even a wal-mart hollow point. The ballistics of some ammo I just picked up (RCBO?) in .45 is insane - 2200 ft/sec muzzle velocity and 815-ish lb/ft of force applied to the target at 15 yards. And that's a 90 grain load. It's a soft hollow point with a frangible lead core that makes it feed better in an SA pistol, stop better when it hits the target, and spread out like crazy, doing a lot more internal damage. Of course, it's over $40 for a box of 20... definitely not something I can afford to practice with regularly.

That same ammo in .380 is going to hit just as hard and do just as much damage as generic WWB JHP .45, according to ballistics studies. Of course, my .45 Kimber using that ammo is still a better choice... but if I had to conceal an LCP-sized weapon and had the right ammo for it, I would not be any less confident in my "stopping power" :)

Absolutely agree with chosing the right ammo.
Not sure I agree with everything you posted there but I do agree with the general idea.
Good 9mm as good as .45 ball? Probably. Better than? . . . questionable.
Plus, you can't rely on the idea that your ammo will always expand properly. A .45 caliber bullet is going to punch a .45 caliber hole. A 9mm bullet might expand to make a hole that big or even bigger. And it might not.
I'd like to see the tests that show a .380 that's as good as WWB JHP .45.

I was recently on another forum where they were discussing what gun you needed for shooting grizzly in Alaska. The Alaska residents, including a number of guides on the forum, tended to shake their heads and laugh at some of the things hunters from the lower 48 thought they wanted/needed. The Alaskans were saying that a .30-06 with the right bullet, and with good shot placement, was plenty. People who brought their .458 Win Mag elephant gun were mostly people on their first trip to Alaska. So yeah, shot placement and bullet design is as important as caliber.

But the same advances we've seen in small calibers have also been applied to the larger calibers. The same companies who make good 9mm hollow points make .45 hollow points that are even better.

Like with automobile engines, there's no substitute for cubic inches.

That doesn't mean I would feel unarmed when carrying a .380. But no .380 would make me feel as well-armed as a caliber starting with a 4.

But . . . shifting in the other direction:
Lower recoil will allow you to get back on target for faster follow-up shots. Is one shot with a .45 as good as two shots with a 9mm? I don't know. More hits with a smaller caliber vs. fewer hits with a larger caliber is a subject I've never seen explored and might be worth looking into.

[djjoshuad]

the info I was shown were based on having a .380 bullet with the same approximate mass as a .45 WWB JHP because of the filled-in frangible core, similar muzzle velocity because of the hotter load (albeit with a shorter tested barrel), and greater fragmentation. Shot into center mass (as we should all be aiming!), the mix of tissues and bone being impacted by the frangible core *and the mushroomed JHP portion* create a spread pattern that *should* be more effective than just a mushroomed JHP that is slightly wider. Of course, shot placement is paramount. In order for a frangible round to be as effective, it needs to hit vital organs. If you hit a femur, for example, you want more of the mass to be in the "mushroom" than in the spread.

My philosophy is that everyone should train with their chosen carry weapon, then train some more, then once that's done they should keep training. Having a mousegun that you know very well and are very comfortable shooting is far better than a big, bad, full size .45 that you just brought home from the gun show. putting the right ammo in that mousegun slides the scales even more in your direction. I don't want my wife to carry my .45 - regardless of its superior stopping power. She's not "scared" of it, but she doesn't like shooting it and she won't train with it. She does, however, enjoy shooting our 9mm and .380 guns. I want her to carry one of those. If the time ever does come for her to use it, I want her to be comfortable and confident in her ability to put a few rounds into her assailant. I also want her to carry with the best ammo possible, so that the shots she does land will be the most effective. Each of our SA handguns has a magazine dedicated to "carry ammo" and magazines that we use for target shooting.

My point is not to argue, just trying to clarify what I posted earlier. The ballistics reports on this stuff (after looking it up, I think it's RBCD not RCBO but I'll verify tonight) is quite impressive. I was happy with my WWB JHP ammo for carry... until I saw these reports. FWIW, I also had some feed issues with Remington UMC JHP 230gr in my Kimber. That's what made me go looking for an alternative... my local gunsmith turned me on to this stuff not only for its badassitude but also the fact that bullets with a "nose" have fewer feeding issues. This is the best of both worlds :)

[jamisjockey]

There is something to be said for consistiency. If you are constantly bouncing from platform to platform, how do you know you'll be able to operate that firearm under stress? Especially when we start talking single actions, guns with manual safeties, etc.
Dress around the gun, don't gun around the dress. If you feel that your perfect gun is a .380 or naa mini, fine. Dress to carry it. If you dig on a gold plated Deagle fitty, well, dress right for it, too.

[djjoshuad]

as a point of fact (if anyone still cares, lol), the WWB JHP 230gr .45 ammo, according to winchester.com, moves 838 ft/s and applies 350 lb/ft at 10 yds. The RBCD TFSP 45gr .380 ammo moves 1835 ft/s and applies 337 lb/ft at 10 yds. Ballistically speaking, they should impact the target with the same amount of force. The RBCD bullet style (TFSP vs. JFP) will be superior to the WWB for center-mass hits.

Just FYI :)

[speedsix]

...never took physics, but I don't believe that a bullet weighing 20% of a larger bullet even moving over twice as fast, can generate as much stopping power...and your figures back it up...the .380 yields 337 and the .45 yields 350...given the speed, the .380's likely to pass through the body unless it hits a bone big enough to stop it and leave less of its energy in the target than the slower .45, which will most likely stay in the body with a center mass hit...
...let's see what those who know 'bout those things say about it...doesn't seem logical to me...this new ammo does seem to be bodacious powerful...but not that much...

[mgood]

I like big bullets and I can not lie. . . .
My two main pistols are in .45 ACP and .40 S&W.
We can debate bullets, calibers, and stopping power for decades and never completely agree.
I do not doubt that there are some very good small-caliber bullets available today for self defense. But I also think that the same technology applied to larger calibers is even better.
However, carrying around a huge handgun may not be practical. I did not mean to say that the ammo djjoshuad is talking about is in any way inadequate. I'd like to have a little pocket .380 myself.

Today, gun manufacturers seem to be in a race to see who can make the smallest, lightest 9mm. This interests me a lot for a concealed carry weapon. We're seeing .32s and even .380s in guns now that are the size you used to only get .25ACP in. We may soon see 9mm in guns just about that small.

I agree with Col. Cooper on a number of things, including what he said about the .25.

Quoting the famous Jeff Cooper:

As we used to teach in the spook business, carry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it you may shoot it. If you shoot it you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody - and he finds out about it - he may be very angry with you.

But I will admit to frequently going about armed only with an NAA Pug in .22 Mag when my larger pistols were just too big. It's better than a sharp stick.



My hands are a little smaller than average, so that gives you an idea of the size.
Small guns have their place. And I'm all for companies making better and better defensive ammo for these small guns.
The right gun for the right occasion.

There is something to be said for consistiency. If you are constantly bouncing from platform to platform, how do you know you'll be able to operate that firearm under stress?

I do agree with that too. You need to practice to be competent with whatever weapon you carry. If you change between different platforms, you need to practice with all of them. Some people will carry multiple sizes of the same basic platform. Glocks and XDs come in various sizes of the same gun so there's very little extra learning involved there. 1911s come in several sizes.
Even if you have a couple of totally different guns, a 1911 and a Glock, for example, and you practice to be good with both, you might wonder how much more competent you'd be if you put all your practice time/ammo into one platform and carried just that. These things are personal decisions we all have to make. Discussing and debating this stuff here may not change many people's minds, but it does make us more aware of these issues we need to consider.

[djjoshuad]

...never took physics, but I don't believe that a bullet weighing 20% of a larger bullet even moving over twice as fast, can generate as much stopping power...and your figures back it up...the .380 yields 337 and the .45 yields 350...given the speed, the .380's likely to pass through the body unless it hits a bone big enough to stop it and leave less of its energy in the target than the slower .45, which will most likely stay in the body with a center mass hit...
...let's see what those who know 'bout those things say about it...doesn't seem logical to me...this new ammo does seem to be bodacious powerful...but not that much...

337 versus 350 is a negligible difference in force - less than 5%. And no, the higher speed does not mean it is more likely to overpenetrate. Mass resists force equally, regardless of speed, not to mention the fact that the frangible core of the .380 in question is designed specifically to prevent overpenetration. Also, a .380 round is about 67% of the size of a .45, not 20%.

my point was not that the .380 is better than the .45, my point was that most people (not all, of course) buy the generic JHP ammo and assume that because it is .45 it is far and above better than a .380. That simply isn't true. With the exact same type of ammo, the .45 will always be better. but if you want to carry a .380 and have the same stopping power as the *average* .45 round JHP... it's easy enough to do.

[speedsix]

...I didn't say SIZE...I said WEIGHT...45 Gr. is about 20% the weight of a 230 Gr. Ball round...

...I don't believe that a smaller projectile moving three times as fast won't penetrate significantly more than a large, slow-moving one...just doesn't register with me...maybe it's true...
...I don't see how 45 gr. can generate as much stopping power as 230 gr...without moving fast enough to penetrate more...I need to study ballistics more, I guess...

[djjoshuad]

maybe this will help... imagine a BB fired from a classic Red Ryder BB gun, which moves at 280 ft/sec (that's just over 190 mph). Imagine that thing hitting you and how it will feel... I think most of us have been shot by a BB gun before :). Then imagine a locomotive moving at 19 mph (10% of the speed of the BB). Which do you think will "overpenetrate"? ;) The point of that analogy is to take two extremes and compare them. The locomotive has a thousands of tons of mass, and moving slowly will still demolish any living thing in its path because of the amount of force applied. The BB leaves a nice red mark and *might* draw blood... but will rarely even penetrate the skin, again because of the force applied. These are two extremes... now imagine two things in the middle of this spectrum. a .380 round and a .45 round. The 45 moves a lot slower but has a lot more mass. The .380 has very little mass comparatively, but is moving much more quickly. That lighter weight is compensated for by the speed... resulting in similar amounts of force for each.

The similar force ratings mean that when the bullet hits the target, it will be with the same strength. The *composition* of the bullet is key here. the .45 (especially in ball ammo) is significantly more prone to overpenetration. The ball maintains its shape, and therefore maintains more of its force to the same small area. The .380 round I was talking about has a frangible lead core and a soft point behind it. these materials will fracture, mushroom, and spread out, meaning that it will imart its force to a larger area. This makes the bullet stop much more quickly. It also creates a larger wound channel and therefore does more damage. The .45 ball will tend to just push on through. The JHP .45 round that I was comparing it to will actually spread out a little, but not as much as the .380 (no frangible core) and while it's not as likely as ball to overpenetrate, it's *more* likely than the .380 round I talked about.

For reference (I did take physics in high school and college, although it's been over 10 years):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_ballistics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[The Annoyed Man]

IMO, ammo selection is just as important as caliber selection. a 9mm with some solid (expensive) self-protection rounds is far more deadly than a .45 with ball ammo or even a wal-mart hollow point. The ballistics of some ammo I just picked up (RCBO?) in .45 is insane - 2200 ft/sec muzzle velocity and 815-ish lb/ft of force applied to the target at 15 yards. And that's a 90 grain load. It's a soft hollow point with a frangible lead core that makes it feed better in an SA pistol, stop better when it hits the target, and spread out like crazy, doing a lot more internal damage. Of course, it's over $40 for a box of 20... definitely not something I can afford to practice with regularly.

That same ammo in .380 is going to hit just as hard and do just as much damage as generic WWB JHP .45, according to ballistics studies. Of course, my .45 Kimber using that ammo is still a better choice... but if I had to conceal an LCP-sized weapon and had the right ammo for it, I would not be any less confident in my "stopping power" :)

The problem is that your frangible ammo, which even you concede is expensive and hard to find, won't go through anything you might need to shoot through—a car door or windshield, for instance. How does your frangible perform in winter against multiple layers of heavy clothing when compared to the above mentioned .45 JHP? Also, you're mostly comparing your frangibles against WWB .45 ball....not really a valid comparison since most people who carry .45 don't carry ball, but instead bother to purchase good SD ammo with a track record of all around good performance. In that format, .45 does not overpenetrate, and it has a VERY good record. And, none of your frangibles, or any other JHP for that matter, is worth a cup of warm spit if you miss. Shot placement is still important.

So, when you shoot someone in the middle of winter, two to center of mass, and he's wearing a pea coat over a down vest over a sweater over a wool shirt over a T-shirt, will your frangible still take him out of the fight? I'll be betting on the 230 grain Speer Gold Dot at 890 fps which can penetrate multiple layers of clothing and still expand with good penetration..... .....on more than just a block of ballistic gelatin.

[speedsix]

...I have no way of knowing if the examples you use are right...and I'm not saying they're not...and I don't even have a problem that you're using frangible/expanding rounds in the .380...a dark monster lurking deep inside my heart will always tell me to pick up the .45...even with ball...instead of ANY .380...and I'll listen every time...too much water under the bridge for me to buy the argument...and, if that's ignorance...so be it...a dunce cap's fine with me...long as I'm well armed...and Gold Dot 230gr +P is my first choice...