"gunbuster" signs, trespassing, etc.

[sjfcontrol]

If you look at the Texas laws on criminal trespass in general (30.05 not 30.06), one of the requirements is always that the owner must notify the person that they may not enter. This notification may take many forms, such as a sign, a locked door, a fence of specific designs, or even a purple stripe painted on trees in certain ways. This seems reasonable to me. You can control your property but you have to let me know what your wishes are.

Does anybody else find this... odd? I suppose a fence, by design, kinda says "stay out", but purple paint on trees? I'd never heard of such a thing until I took my CHL class. If I'm wandering thru the woods, I certainly would not have identified purple paint as saying "stay out". Of course, if I'm wandering thru the woods, I'm probably lost...

Nope, not odd at all. Seen the painted posts/trees most my life.

Is it a Texas thing?

[wgoforth]

If you look at the Texas laws on criminal trespass in general (30.05 not 30.06), one of the requirements is always that the owner must notify the person that they may not enter. This notification may take many forms, such as a sign, a locked door, a fence of specific designs, or even a purple stripe painted on trees in certain ways. This seems reasonable to me. You can control your property but you have to let me know what your wishes are.

Does anybody else find this... odd? I suppose a fence, by design, kinda says "stay out", but purple paint on trees? I'd never heard of such a thing until I took my CHL class. If I'm wandering thru the woods, I certainly would not have identified purple paint as saying "stay out". Of course, if I'm wandering thru the woods, I'm probably lost...

Nope, not odd at all. Seen the painted posts/trees most my life.

Is it a Texas thing?

Nope, pretty well universal. Seen it on farms/woods in many states... has idea of "keep out: Posted" Trespassers will be shot: No hunting on this here property."

[sjfcontrol]

If you look at the Texas laws on criminal trespass in general (30.05 not 30.06), one of the requirements is always that the owner must notify the person that they may not enter. This notification may take many forms, such as a sign, a locked door, a fence of specific designs, or even a purple stripe painted on trees in certain ways. This seems reasonable to me. You can control your property but you have to let me know what your wishes are.

Does anybody else find this... odd? I suppose a fence, by design, kinda says "stay out", but purple paint on trees? I'd never heard of such a thing until I took my CHL class. If I'm wandering thru the woods, I certainly would not have identified purple paint as saying "stay out". Of course, if I'm wandering thru the woods, I'm probably lost...

Nope, not odd at all. Seen the painted posts/trees most my life.

Is it a Texas thing?

Nope, pretty well universal. Seen it on farms/woods in many states... has idea of "keep out: Posted" Trespassers will be shot: No hunting on this here property."

OK -- must just be my city upbringing!

[cool hand luke]

sorry to post and run, got an emergency call at work that kept me away from the computer till way late last night, and I just forgot about this thread.

First off let me say that I'm very very impressed by the membership of this board. I'm on numerous other message boards, and rarely have I seen so much intelligent conversation without name calling, bashing or flaming. I will definitely read here more often because of it.

Thanks for all of your opinions, and it really opened my eyes. I will definitely have to think this over some more. Many of the comments make alot of sense. Like I said, I'm new to CHL, but have been a cantankerous libertarian for a while now, so I'm slowly adjusting my thoughts on many issues.

[clarionite]

Why would he arrest you for having a CHL? If they ran your DL, they would know you had one anyway. Just check your concealment method and go for it, unless they have metal detectors.

If he thinks I'm carrying illegally he'll arrest me. And carrying in a restricted area is carrying illegally. If he thinks the area is restricted, even if it really isn't then he'll arrest me if he realizes I'm carrying. If he asks for my ID, legally I have to give him both my ID and CHL if I'm carrying. More than likely I'll never be asked for my ID in one of these places, but stranger things have happened. I was once "pulled over" for taking a walk. I was quitting smoking, and would walk off the cravings. I went for a walk one evening before bed and an officer pulled up beside me and asked me for my ID. It was pre CHL so I wasn't carrying. He asked if I had been drinking. I hadn't. It was a very strange encounter.

[wgoforth]

Why would he arrest you for having a CHL? If they ran your DL, they would know you had one anyway. Just check your concealment method and go for it, unless they have metal detectors.

If he thinks I'm carrying illegally he'll arrest me. And carrying in a restricted area is carrying illegally. If he thinks the area is restricted, even if it really isn't then he'll arrest me if he realizes I'm carrying. If he asks for my ID, legally I have to give him both my ID and CHL if I'm carrying. More than likely I'll never be asked for my ID in one of these places, but stranger things have happened. I was once "pulled over" for taking a walk. I was quitting smoking, and would walk off the cravings. I went for a walk one evening before bed and an officer pulled up beside me and asked me for my ID. It was pre CHL so I wasn't carrying. He asked if I had been drinking. I hadn't. It was a very strange encounter.

"But I'm sure that if that officer were to ask for my ID for some
reason while I were on city property and I gave him both my CHL and DL, he'd arrest me."

You can't be arrested anywhere for having a CHL. Am I understanding you to say that if I have my CHL and show it in a place that is properly (or improperly) posted that I could be arrested just for having a CHL??

[clarionite]

You can't be arrested anywhere for having a CHL. Am I understanding you to say that if I have my CHL and show it in a place that is properly 30.06 I could be arrested for having a CHL??

Not for having a CHL, for carrying your weapon. If I hand the officer my CHL, it's because I'm carrying. If I'm not carrying, I won't hand him my CHL. There's no reason to hand him a Concealed Handgun License if you don't have a Concealed Handgun on you.

I'm talking about a place the officer incorretly believes to be off limits to Concealed Carry, but actually is not. If it's city property and isn't one of the specificly listed areas that are prevented from carry (School, school functions, buildings that contain a court room, Jails, police departments, etc...) then the city can't post a 30.06. But this officer insists that a Gun Buster sign prevents CHL carry in that area, and that a City Park is off limits also.

[wgoforth]

You can't be arrested anywhere for having a CHL. Am I understanding you to say that if I have my CHL and show it in a place that is properly 30.06 I could be arrested for having a CHL??

Not for having a CHL, for carrying your weapon. If I hand the officer my CHL, it's because I'm carrying. If I'm not carrying, I won't hand him my CHL. There's no reason to hand him a Concealed Handgun License if you don't have a Concealed Handgun on you.

I'm talking about a place the officer incorretly believes to be off limits to Concealed Carry, but actually is not. If it's city property and isn't one of the specificly listed areas that are prevented from carry (School, school functions, buildings that contain a court room, Jails, police departments, etc...) then the city can't post a 30.06. But this officer insists that a Gun Buster sign prevents CHL carry in that area, and that a City Park is off limits also.

OK, it was confusing when you said youd get arrested for handing him your CHL...Keep in mind if he runs your DL he is going to know you have a CHL automatically. And you can carry in Police Depts as far as I know as long as it isn't into secure areas. BTW, I have met many LEO's who didn't know gun laws.

[Teamless]

But this officer insists that a Gun Buster sign prevents CHL carry in that area, and that a City Park is off limits also

Have you talked to his supervisor?
I would, and I would note the date and time.
If anytime after that, you get arrested, falsely, I would think you would have grounds for a lawsuit.

[wgoforth]

But this officer insists that a Gun Buster sign prevents CHL carry in that area, and that a City Park is off limits also

Have you talked to his supervisor?
I would, and I would note the date and time.
If anytime after that, you get arrested, falsely, I would think you would have grounds for a lawsuit.

I have been told numerous times, by law enforcement, that it is illegal to carry into churches in TX... They can say all they want, doing is another and sticking is even more.

[clarionite]

OK, it was confusing when you said youd get arrested for handing him your CHL...Keep in mind if he runs your DL he is going to know you have a CHL automatically. And you can carry in Police Depts as far as I know as long as it isn't into secure areas. BTW, I have met many LEO's who didn't know gun laws.

Sorry for the counfusion. I know he'll be aware of the CHL when he runs the license. I'm not concerned about that. I told him as much when I asked him the question.
As you said, I can't be arrested for being a CHL holder. I went back and read 46.035 and you might be right about the Police Depts. I don't know if I just lumped Police Depts in with Correctional Facilities when I read it or if it was mentioned in my training course.

[wgoforth]

OK, it was confusing when you said youd get arrested for handing him your CHL...Keep in mind if he runs your DL he is going to know you have a CHL automatically. And you can carry in Police Depts as far as I know as long as it isn't into secure areas. BTW, I have met many LEO's who didn't know gun laws.

Sorry for the counfusion. I know he'll be aware of the CHL when he runs the license. I'm not concerned about that. I told him as much when I asked him the question.
As you said, I can't be arrested for being a CHL holder. I went back and read 46.035 and you might be right about the Police Depts. I don't know if I just lumped Police Depts in with Correctional Facilities when I read it or if it was mentioned in my training course.

You can't, unfortunatly, even believe everything in the training classes. It was a Deputy Sherrif who taught the CHL class I was in, ad he taught (1) Your not allowed to even have a single drop of alcohol to carry (which would be fine with me, but aint so) and (2) He said yoy had to have written authorization of clergy to carry in house of worship. Others can correct me, but I believe police depts are good providing it is not in the areas where they bring the criminals through. Several have said they were taught the same.

Certainly do as you feel best, your there and I'm not... but the sign isn't enforceable, it's a municipal building falling under state preemption, your legal and the cop don't know 30.06 from a doughnut. 3 strikes, he's out. I'd check my concealment and go with it. IF you did the ride, he'd be in the sling not you.

[clarionite]

You can't, unfortunatly, even believe everything in the training classes. It was a Deputy Sherrif who taught the CHL class I was in, ad he taught (1) Your not allowed to even have a single drop of alcohol to carry (which would be fine with me, but aint so) and (2) He said yoy had to have written authorization of clergy to carry in house of worship. Others can correct me, but I believe police depts are good providing it is not in the areas where they bring the criminals through. Several have said they were taught the same.

My instructor taught the same things. But he explained that being over the limit to carry is subjective, unlike being over the limit to drive which is spelled out as a specific BAC.

I believe when it came to churches though, he said it had to be posted 30.06. I can understand the confusion on a non CHL holder's part when it comes to churches though. The law says in one place that it's against the law to carry in a church or an amusement park. In another place, and on the website it says it's illegal to carry in those places if they're posted with a 30.06 sign. If it's only the 30.06 sign that stops you from carrying there, there's no reason to specifically state those places because it's against the law to carry on any private property that is posted with a 30.06.

Certainly do as you feel best, your there and I'm not... but the sign isn't enforceable, it's a municipal building falling under state preemption, your legal and the cop don't know 30.06 from a doughnut. 3 strikes, he's out. I'd check my concealment and go with it. IF you did the ride, he'd be in the sling not you.

I'd rather not be the one who takes the ride to give the officer the education he needs. But I get a little aggravated that because I carry a weapon I'm supposed to know the weapons laws, but he carry's a weapon, is tasked with upholding those same laws and he's ignorant of the laws.

I've ignored all other gun buster signs, other than the one at the municipal building when it had a court room in it. I've followed all 30.06 signs I've encountered, including the one at AMC 24 that's at ankle level on the door. I haven't been back to AMC 24 because of that sign, Palladium gets my business now. I ignored a 30.05 sign by accident once, because it was posted in a place I didn't see until I left the shop. But I've never been back to that shop either.

I've followed the laws of this state and every other state I've carried in as I understand them. I just wish all LEO were required to understand the laws that deal with CHL better. I'd hate to end up being front page news like the gentleman at the Vegas Costco because someone didn't understand the law. I'm not saying that's what happened in that case, just that I'd hate to be shot because of a misunderstanding.

[wgoforth]

You can't, unfortunatly, even believe everything in the training classes. It was a Deputy Sherrif who taught the CHL class I was in, ad he taught (1) Your not allowed to even have a single drop of alcohol to carry (which would be fine with me, but aint so) and (2) He said yoy had to have written authorization of clergy to carry in house of worship. Others can correct me, but I believe police depts are good providing it is not in the areas where they bring the criminals through. Several have said they were taught the same.

My instructor taught the same things. But he explained that being over the limit to carry is subjective, unlike being over the limit to drive which is spelled out as a specific BAC.

I believe when it came to churches though, he said it had to be posted 30.06. I can understand the confusion on a non CHL holder's part when it comes to churches though. The law says in one place that it's against the law to carry in a church or an amusement park. In another place, and on the website it says it's illegal to carry in those places if they're posted with a 30.06 sign. If it's only the 30.06 sign that stops you from carrying there, there's no reason to specifically state those places because it's against the law to carry on any private property that is posted with a 30.06.

Certainly do as you feel best, your there and I'm not... but the sign isn't enforceable, it's a municipal building falling under state preemption, your legal and the cop don't know 30.06 from a doughnut. 3 strikes, he's out. I'd check my concealment and go with it. IF you did the ride, he'd be in the sling not you.

I'd rather not be the one who takes the ride to give the officer the education he needs. But I get a little aggravated that because I carry a weapon I'm supposed to know the weapons laws, but he carry's a weapon, is tasked with upholding those same laws and he's ignorant of the laws.

I've ignored all other gun buster signs, other than the one at the municipal building when it had a court room in it. I've followed all 30.06 signs I've encountered, including the one at AMC 24 that's at ankle level on the door. I haven't been back to AMC 24 because of that sign, Palladium gets my business now. I ignored a 30.05 sign by accident once, because it was posted in a place I didn't see until I left the shop. But I've never been back to that shop either.

I've followed the laws of this state and every other state I've carried in as I understand them. I just wish all LEO were required to understand the laws that deal with CHL better. I'd hate to end up being front page news like the gentleman at the Vegas Costco because someone didn't understand the law. I'm not saying that's what happened in that case, just that I'd hate to be shot because of a misunderstanding.

The church confusion is due to a change in the law. Texas Penal Code, like to Constitution, gets changed by amendments.... it doesn't remove the original law, it amends afterwards. However, it's never been the case in TX where you had to get written permission from the clergy. I srupulously follow the law as well... I just expect them to do the same. we have a municipal building here as well with a generic "No concealed weapons" and I carry right on past. Remember, concealed is concealed. I believe I would make a friendly, polite call to said officers superior and see what he has to say. If he understands the law correctly, then ask he inform his officers in their daily briefings.

[zero4o3]

wgoforth wrote:
You can't, unfortunatly, even believe everything in the training classes. It was a Deputy Sherrif who taught the CHL class I was in, ad he taught (1) Your not allowed to even have a single drop of alcohol to carry (which would be fine with me, but aint so) and (2) He said yoy had to have written authorization of clergy to carry in house of worship. Others can correct me, but I believe police depts are good providing it is not in the areas where they bring the criminals through. Several have said they were taught the same.
My instructor taught the same things. But he explained that being over the limit to carry is subjective, unlike being over the limit to drive which is spelled out as a specific BAC.

even this is still incorrect, being "over the limit" just means they dont have to prove you are intoxicated, being "under the limit" does not mean you are not intoxicated you run the same risk getting a dwi with .04 BAC as you do getting in trouble for carrying (not that I recommend drinking / driving / carrying )

just pointing out a flaw in your instructors logic (at least its a flaw to me )