Should the 380 be discouraged as a CCW ?

[mt_goodrich]

I'm back and forth on a .380. I like the small size but concerned about stopping power.

I have had a couple of folks tell me they will CCW with a .380 during the summer, but will move to a larger caliber in the winter. I asked why. Was told that in winter, folks are wearing jackets and may slow down a round from a .380.

As many of you have stated, it is a personal choice and I tend to agree.

[djwdjw]

I carry either a Kahr p380 or Sig p238, if I have a .380 sized pocket on a particular day. I've found that they are both interestingly quite accurate if you spend a little range time with them. Never had a reliability problem with either.

Sometimes my pocket is 9mm sized, sometimes .45 ACP sized.

Someone smarter than me in the forum said something like... if you need more than 5 or 6 you had better be making haste for exit or cover.

[wgoforth]

I'm back and forth on a .380. I like the small size but concerned about stopping power.

I have had a couple of folks tell me they will CCW with a .380 during the summer, but will move to a larger caliber in the winter. I asked why. Was told that in winter, folks are wearing jackets and may slow down a round from a .380.

As many of you have stated, it is a personal choice and I tend to agree.

And that is legitimate on hollow points. Hornady has the rubber-filled hollow point designed to not get clogged with clothing for that reason. Many with even 9mm will change ammo depending on season.

[7075-T7]

No love for the 10mm? Everything from 135gr rockets to 230gr sledgehammers

.380 isn't my cup of tea, but with correct ammunition (Doubletap XTP rounds) and proper shot placement it's enough.

I love my 12oz Scandium .357, and I've practiced to be accurate and quick. but it isn't fun, especially one-handed off hand, but it works every time I pull the trigger.

[RubenZ]

I just purchased an LCP because of it's small size compared to my Colt Govt. 1911. I can't seem to feel comfortable with an IWB. Not to mention 2-3 shots from a .380 to the upper chest will ruin anyones day.

[Excaliber]

I carry either a Kahr p380 or Sig p238, if I have a .380 sized pocket on a particular day. I've found that they are both interestingly quite accurate if you spend a little range time with them. Never had a reliability problem with either.

Sometimes my pocket is 9mm sized, sometimes .45 ACP sized.

Someone smarter than me in the forum said something like... if you need more than 5 or 6 you had better be making haste for exit or cover.

Well, that's not bad advice as far as it goes, but you might want to think a little more on that one.

There's a reason why police officers, who wear ballistic vests, often come with two or more, and carry radios to make it rain cops in a hurry almost all carry 40 or more rounds in a major caliber. Trust me when I tell you it's not for the workout that comes from hauling all that lead around all day every day.

Consider that the national average hit ratio for police officers in gunfights is around 18%. Now, you may be far more proficient in the use of your .380 than most police officers are with their service pistols (or not), but it's worthwhile to consider that 18% of five isn't even a whole 1. Facing the usual 2 or more BG's with a likelihood of one potential hit (which may or may not put that individual out of action) out of 5 available and a backup plan that consists only of fleet feet is well outside of my personal comfort zone.

YMMV.

[Scott in Houston]

[
Consider that the national average hit ratio for police officers in gunfights is around 18%. Now, you may be far more proficient in the use of your .380 than most police officers are with their service pistols (or not), but it's worthwhile to consider that 18% of five isn't even a whole 1. Facing the usual 2 or more BG's with a likelihood of one potential hit (which may or may not put that individual out of action) out of 5 available and a backup plan that consists only of fleet feet is well outside of my personal comfort zone.

YMMV.

I underlined the key thing for me. The single bad guy is the exception, not the rule. They travel in pairs at a minimum most of the time, right? I can't remember the last story I've read or heard about a single bad guy.

[drjoker]

Wow.

If the 380 is too small for a CCW, then my friend with the 22lr is truly undergunned! You know, sometimes nothing but a 380 will do. The 380 is my "walking the dog in my pajamas in front of La Quinta Inn in downtown Houston at night gun". Yeah, there are guns with bigger bullets, but the 380 is the only gun light weight enough to be carried WITHOUT a belt in my pajamas. I can keep it in my pajamas in a pocket holster while I sleep and not be jolted awake by a huge hunk of metal sticking in my gut if I roll over in my sleep. I don't feel the gun at all when I roll over on top of it. So, when I hear the little furry beast yipping because he will pee in the room and lose my deposit, I can run out at a moment's notice, knowing that I am armed. A 380 in my pocket is better than a 45 in my night stand drawer. I very rarely carry and if I don't carry when staying in strange hotels in a big city, then I won't be carrying at all....

I have a friend who carries a 22lr single action revolver. It has a very light trigger and is extremely heavy so it has zero recoil. Modern double action revolvers have a trigger that is too heavy for her. For example, a S&W J frame has an 12-18 lb trigger.

[texanron]

I'd wear blue jeans in Houston year round to avoid having to carry under 9mm.

[Excaliber]

Wow.

If the 380 is too small for a CCW, then my friend with the 22lr is truly undergunned! You know, sometimes nothing but a 380 will do. The 380 is my "walking the dog in my pajamas in front of La Quinta Inn in downtown Houston at night gun". Yeah, there are guns with bigger bullets, but the 380 is the only gun light weight enough to be carried WITHOUT a belt in my pajamas. I can keep it in my pajamas in a pocket holster while I sleep and not be jolted awake by a huge hunk of metal sticking in my gut if I roll over in my sleep. I don't feel the gun at all when I roll over on top of it. So, when I hear the little furry beast yipping because he will pee in the room and lose my deposit, I can run out at a moment's notice, knowing that I am armed. A 380 in my pocket is better than a 45 in my night stand drawer. I very rarely carry and if I don't carry when staying in strange hotels in a big city, then I won't be carrying at all....

I have a friend who carries a 22lr single action revolver. It has a very light trigger and is extremely heavy so it has zero recoil. Modern double action revolvers have a trigger that is too heavy for her. For example, a S&W J frame has an 12-18 lb trigger.

Yes, a .380 in your pocket is better than a .45 left at home. However, if you ever need to use it in an emergency, you'll probably find out pretty quickly why leaving the .45 at home might not have been the best decision you've ever made.

The only thing I'll say about your friend's single action .22 is that it is somewhat more useful for self defense than a pellet pistol, even if only marginally so. Carrying a big heavy gun that fires tiny bullets manages to combine the low ends of both convenience and stopping power. The logic for doing so escapes me.

The crux of this discussion revolves around the relative importance one assigns to carrying convenience and fight stopping performance. As luck would have it, in reality both characteristics vary inversely with one another.

In other words, when you choose a gun with great convenience, you've got one with poor fight stopping ability. When you pick a gun with great fight stopping ability, its carrying convenience is low.

Both of these characteristics are on a continuum, and there are many combinations between these two extremes. However, the reality is that there's no such thing as a tiny, convenient gun with great fight stopping ability.

My personal observation is that those who have never either been in a gunfight or seen the immediate aftermath up close and personal tend to go primarily for carry convenience, because they don't understand the real world implications of the fact that not all things that go "bang" are created equal.

On the other hand, those who have either been in gunfights or seen the immediate aftermath up close and personal tend to carry the biggest gun they can reasonably conceal with a good supply of extra ammunition.

The bottom line is that everyone is responsible for making his or her own choice regarding what balance he or she is willing to bet his life on. It's worthwhile to keep in mind that if the situation we carry guns for arises, that's exactly what's at stake.

[Excaliber]

I'd wear blue jeans in Houston year round to avoid having to carry under 9mm.

A gun like the Kahr PM45 (or PM9 or PM40) carried in a kydex Fist pocket holster disappears in the pocket of a pair of cargo shorts. It's not much bigger and heavier than many .380's (the LCP's and KelTec's excepted), and one can do just about anything he can do with a 1911 with these guns too.

I may be a little slow sometimes, but to me it's so easy to do this right it makes little sense to do otherwise.

[Hoi Polloi]

[
Consider that the national average hit ratio for police officers in gunfights is around 18%. Now, you may be far more proficient in the use of your .380 than most police officers are with their service pistols (or not), but it's worthwhile to consider that 18% of five isn't even a whole 1. Facing the usual 2 or more BG's with a likelihood of one potential hit (which may or may not put that individual out of action) out of 5 available and a backup plan that consists only of fleet feet is well outside of my personal comfort zone.

YMMV.

I underlined the key thing for me. The single bad guy is the exception, not the rule. They travel in pairs at a minimum most of the time, right? I can't remember the last story I've read or heard about a single bad guy.

All the bad guys I've personally encountered were working alone. There are numerous real life accounts on these forums of others having the same experience (road rager, the recent druggie with a towel in his lap confronting the grandpa, etc). I think the types of violent crimes women are more likely to experience or to need to use deadly force to protect themselves from might be different from those men worry about. For example, most women who are murdered were murdered by a partner or ex-partner, I believe. Most rapists also tend to work individually, I believe.

I don't mean to imply what percentage is what or to enter the debate on whether a .380 is sufficient for two or more or whatever else. I'm only saying that the assertion that bad guys only comes in pairs is not accurate.

Different people need to protect themselves primarily from different groups. A woman who gets a handgun because she has an individual stalker is facing a very different dynamic than the owner of a convenience store whose needs are different from a police officer whose job is to engage bad guys whose needs are different from the military whose needs are different from an inner city grandma who is facing break-ins who is different from a middle to upper class male who is worried about Luby's or Denny's or other random and untargeted crime. The last group, if they face a situation requiring deadly force, will most likely face robbery which means they're more likely to face multiple assailants. That doesn't mean that their needs or concerns are the same as everyone else's and likewise the type of firearm best suited to the person and the situation will not be the same, either.

[texanron]

I'd wear blue jeans in Houston year round to avoid having to carry under 9mm.

A gun like the Kahr PM45 (or PM9 or PM40) carried in a kydex Fist pocket holster disappears in the pocket of a pair of cargo shorts. It's not much bigger and heavier than many .380's (the LCP's and KelTec's excepted), and one can do just about anything he can do with a 1911 with these guns too.

I may be a little slow sometimes, but to me it's so easy to do this right it makes little sense to do otherwise.

I carry a Glock 26 IWB with my cargo shorts.

[Excaliber]

[
Consider that the national average hit ratio for police officers in gunfights is around 18%. Now, you may be far more proficient in the use of your .380 than most police officers are with their service pistols (or not), but it's worthwhile to consider that 18% of five isn't even a whole 1. Facing the usual 2 or more BG's with a likelihood of one potential hit (which may or may not put that individual out of action) out of 5 available and a backup plan that consists only of fleet feet is well outside of my personal comfort zone.

YMMV.

I underlined the key thing for me. The single bad guy is the exception, not the rule. They travel in pairs at a minimum most of the time, right? I can't remember the last story I've read or heard about a single bad guy.

All the bad guys I've personally encountered were working alone. There are numerous real life accounts on these forums of others having the same experience (road rager, the recent druggie with a towel in his lap confronting the grandpa, etc). I think the types of violent crimes women are more likely to experience or to need to use deadly force to protect themselves from might be different from those men worry about. For example, most women who are murdered were murdered by a partner or ex-partner, I believe. Most rapists also tend to work individually, I believe.

I don't mean to imply what percentage is what or to enter the debate on whether a .380 is sufficient for two or more or whatever else. I'm only saying that the assertion that bad guys only comes in pairs is not accurate.

Different people need to protect themselves primarily from different groups. A woman who gets a handgun because she has an individual stalker is facing a very different dynamic than the owner of a convenience store whose needs are different from a police officer whose job is to engage bad guys whose needs are different from the military whose needs are different from an inner city grandma who is facing break-ins who is different from a middle to upper class male who is worried about Luby's or Denny's or other random and untargeted crime. The last group, if they face a situation requiring deadly force, will most likely face robbery which means they're more likely to face multiple assailants. That doesn't mean that their needs or concerns are the same as everyone else's and likewise the type of firearm best suited to the person and the situation will not be the same, either.

No matter what category you're in, there is no way I know of to be assured that you will only be victimized by the type of folks you expect to attack people with your profile.

If you are well prepared to manage a multiple assailant situation, you are also well prepared to manage a single assailant.

The reverse is not necessarily true.

[punkndisorderly]

I don't think that the 380 should be discouraged outright, but I do thing the vast majority of people would be better served by other pistols in other calibers. It's not as much the caliber itself that I object to as it is the pistols that it tends to be chambered in. My arguements are much the same against 38 snubbies.

A defensive pistol has to be reliable. That's probably my number one requirement. I beleive it was American Rifleman magazine that tested several 380's a littl over a year ago. All of the one's they tested had multiple failures in the time they were tested with one exception. If I remember it was the Rohrbaugh which, because of it's $1,200+ price isn't likely to be at the top of most people's list. This was in the course of 100 rounds per pistol. The writer chalked it up to all the pistols needing more break in time. This means you have to shoot it...

Most people don't like shooting 380's or snubbies. They're fun to carry, but not to shoot. Generally (though there are exceptions) the sights stink, the grips are tiny, the trigger pull is difficult, the magazines are small which means having to reload the magazines frequently, and the recoil isn't pleasant in tiny guns with poor grips. Not only are they not fun to shoot, they are difficult to shoot well for the same reasons. I rarely see them at the range and when I do, people usually shoot 20 rounds or so, then move on to their full size guns or leave. I'm sure some of the people that carry 380's and snubbies practice with them a lot and are very profficient with them. I think that they're in the minority. So, while they're great to carry, most people are unlikely to shoot them enough to be good with them. (I'm amazed at how poor the average shooter is at the ranges I've been to, and that's usually with full size guns with better triggers, better sigts, longer sight radius, etc). I think you should practice with your carry gun at least as often as you shoot your safe queens and range toys and in my observation, few do so with 380's and snubbies.

Somewhat related to my observation that most people aren't committed enough to shoot the 380's and snubbies a lot: in order to ensure that your pistol is reliable, I think a minimum of 100 and more likely 200 rounds of whatever your chosen carry ammo is should be run through it without problems. If the gun is no fun to shoot, what are the chances that the average shooter is going to do this. I suspect the majority of 380's and snubbies sold don't have 200 rounds through them in total, let alone of high dollar hollowpoints.

So, if you're willing to practice with it enough to become proficient with it and remain proficient, and any pistol that is larger is likely to be left at home, then rock that 380. If, like most people, you will buy it, run a hundred rounds of ball ammo through it, pick up a box of cor-bon's, and shoot it once a year just to make sure it still works, you're not doing youselves any favors.

One caveat to this is the larger 380's like the Beretta's and Bersa's. They are large and heavy enough to be a different animal. I don't really put them in the same class as a lcp, keltech, or aluminum framed snubbie.