Guns stopping School Rampages

[The_Reason]

Please help me out, google has failed me today, and I know I have seen it somewhere on here....

Trying to answer the question of when have civilian guns stopped mass shooting, particularly at schools...

I used the Appalachian School of Law example, but know I have seen a list somewhere else.....

Please help, Thanks!

[seamusTX]

There have been only a few incidents where non-LEOs intervened in school rampages in the U.S. The incidents are rare to begin with, they are over quickly, and few school personnel are armed or prepared to do anything.

However, you might be interested in the Israeli experience in this regard:
viewtopic.php?f=94&t=23930" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Israelis do not pussyfoot around with puny handguns carried by the occasional teacher or staff member that may have their equivalent of a CHL. They issue automatic carbines or rifles. They send trained armed guards with school groups going to risky areas.

- Jim

[The_Reason]

I understand, but somewhere I have seen a list of 5 or so incidents where this has happened, and I was hoping someone else remember where it was, and could point me in that direction...

[G.A. Heath]

The Tower shooting at UT saw armed citizens returning fire at the gunman to keep him pinned down so that he couldn't shoot anyone else. I also believe an armed citizen went with police into the tower to stop the shooter.

[seamusTX]

• Texas A&M (1966) - Armed civilians lay down suppressive fire against shooter Charles Whitman, forcing him to take cover and severely restricting his field of view. Allen Crum ascends the tower with police. Whitman is killed.
• Pearl, Mississippi (1997) - Principal Joel Myrick stops school shooter Luke Woodham (who has already killed 3) by pointing a .45 at him as he fled the scene (intending to continue his spree at the nearby Junior High School). Myrick later tells the press he kept the gun in his vehicle specifically in case something like this ever happened.
• Edinboro, Pennsylvania (1997) - Civilian James Strand convinces a juvenile shooter to surrender by pointing a shotgun at him. The shooter had already killed one person and wounded two others.
• Virginia School Of Law (2002) - Armed with their personal firearms (retrieved from their cars), students Tracy Bridges and Ted Besen subdue shooter Peter Odighizuwa while he is in the middle of a physical struggle with a police officer.
• Colorado Springs (2007) - Church shooter Matthew Murray, who had already taken four lives at two other churches, is killed by volunteer security guard Jeanne Assam.

You need to understand the attitude of "antis" about these incidents, though: The gun might have "gone off." Someone might have got hurt. The poor child just needed understanding. If guns were banned, the child wouldn't have had one, yada, yada, yada.

The will even say that the rarity of these incidents "proves" that guns don't prevent crime.


- Jim

[The_Reason]

Thanks Seamus, that is the list I had seen before...

As someone who works in the UT tower, that first one was not at A&M....

[seamusTX]

Right. Whitman was UT Austin. I just copied the list. Some of the other incidents sounded familiar.

I suggest verifying all of them.

- Jim

[esxmarkc]

The details evade me but there was one less than 2 years ago where an unarmed school teacher tackled the guy out front as he was preparing for his rampage. Anyone remember the details on that one?

[seamusTX]

I don't know; but for every multiple-victim school shooting probably there are 100 incidents where someone intervenes before the first shot is fired. Sometimes the would-be berserker is referred to mental health or the juvenile "system" because of threats or some offense like showing off a weapon.

This page is interesting: http://guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvscho.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

- Jim

[esxmarkc]

This is the one I was remembering.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/201 ... ting_N.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Although he did not use a gun to stop the shooting it is important to note that there are those with the warrior's heart ready to step forward and do battle. i'd rather see these good folks not have to go into it empty handed if at all possible.

[RPB]

i'd rather see these good folks not have to go into it empty handed if at all possible.

yup, the final report stats say:

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/jr000248c.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Page 14

Most shooting incidents were
not resolved by law enforcement
intervention.More than half of the
attacks ended before law enforcement
responded to the scene—
despite law enforcement’s often
prompt response. In these cases,
faculty or fellow students stopped
the attacker, or the attacker either
stopped shooting on his own or
committed suicide...

First responders are "usually bystanders" like in Tucson
So in school settings, "first responders" are usually students, faculty and staff, whether armed, or "unarmed, impotent, outmatched, and deceased," like several in Virginia.

[Excaliber]

The details evade me but there was one less than 2 years ago where an unarmed school teacher tackled the guy out front as he was preparing for his rampage. Anyone remember the details on that one?

I think this one at Deer Park Middle School in Colorado is the one you're looking for.

[The Annoyed Man]

Thanks Seamus, that is the list I had seen before...

As someone who works in the UT tower, that first one was not at A&M....

You beat me to it.

[Seabear]

I can't find it, but I rcall reading a report some time ago that said Assam didn't actually hit Murray, that he killed himself when he was confronted. Anybody else ever read that?

[seamusTX]

Ms. Assam shot the criminal shooter, Murray. Murray then shot himself. I have not run across an official document that says which shot was fatal.

In any case, the fact that she shot him undoubtedly terminated the shooting spree. Otherwise Murray was prepared to kill and injure many more people.

You can verify all this by searching for "New Life Church Jeanne Assam."

- Jim