Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot In Arizona

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powerboatr
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Re: Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot In Arizona

#61

Post by powerboatr »

Beiruty wrote:I have feeling that the shooter is not crazy nor having mental issues. He is a life failure. He was finding refuge in extremists anti-government ideology. He might have associated himself with anti-government groups to gain some esteem and redemption for his failure. He seeked violent attack against a public figure in public place to gain notoriety and fame and as way to terminate his failed life

what i have seen on fox this morning surely points in this direction,
he is just another of the "its not my fault" "you owe me" "i feel unloved" he also was ejected form the college campus for videos he posted.

he couldn't even get into the army, so he has to be off the page
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Re: Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot In Arizona

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Post by baldeagle »

b322da wrote:
texanron wrote:I just heard the gunman bought the Glock 9mm legally from a sporting goods store in AZ on November 30th of last year.
"Legally?" This could possibly result, even in Arizona, in questions about limiting sales to certain categories of persons. Recognizing there was apparently no medical diagnosis in this case, that will most likely not inhibit moves, or publicity, in that direction.

Slippery slope?

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I certainly don't see anything wrong with denying access to firearms to people with mental health issues so long as the terms of denial are carefully designed to not entrap people who were falsely accused. We don't know if Loughner ever received any medical treatment for mental illness much less a diagnosis of some pathology, so at this point it is moot in his case.

I think you will see some moves in Congress to either add mental health screening to the NICS checks or strengthen what presently exists (if anything), and I don't see anything wrong with that. Loughner was clearly troubled but was able to buy a weapon (and for the press - it's a SEMIautomatic) and a high capacity magazine just a month and a half before he used it to slaughter 6 people and forever change the lives of many others. If there is a way to put a stop to such purchases without trampling the rights of law-abiding citizens, then I think it should be done. I suspect the Gabrielle Giffords Protection Act will be introduced in the near future.
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Re: Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot In Arizona

#63

Post by Beiruty »

Reading from CNN quote below:
The shooter has the following tendencies and views:
1) Extreme socialist (and maybe communist?), (Reference to Hitler book and Carl Marx book,etc)
2) White Supremest and Neo-Nazi. ( Reference to the end of slavery, and 2nd constitution, etc...)
3) Anti-government (reference to mind-control and new currency)
4) Equate "illiteracy" with lack of interest (or not promoting by schools officials) in reading Nazi and Commi books and ideology. Might be a reference to Latinos too.

Finally, why this shooter is not called a terrorist, or the incident as a terroristic act by an Anti-government agent is just mind boggling :headscratch :headscratch
THE SUSPECTED GUNMAN

– The suspect in the shooting is Jared Lee Loughner, a 22-year-old former community college student, according to an Arizona law enforcement source and a U.S. law enforcement source.

– He railed against government "mind control" and illiteracy in online missives and had "kind of a troubled past," said Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik.

– He also had brushes with the law, the sheriff said without elaborating. "We understand that there have been law enforcement contacts with the individual where he made threats." Court records indicate he had been arrested for possession of drug paraphernalia in 2007, but the charge was dismissed.

– Loughner dropped out of high school in 2006, after his junior year, said Tamara Crawley, a spokeswoman for the Marana United School District in suburban Tucson.

– In 2008, he tried to enlist in the U.S. Army. The Army rejected him, and privacy laws keep the military from disclosing the reason, the service said in a statement to CNN.

– He enrolled at Aztec Middle College, a partnership between Tucson schools and Pima Community College that helps high school dropouts transition to community colleges, the community college President Sylvia Lee told CNN.

– He took classes at the college from 2005 until October 2010, but withdrew after five contacts with police "for classroom and library disruptions" at two campuses between February and September, the school said.

– Loughner was suspended after authorities found a YouTube video in which he called the school "illegal according to the U.S. Constitution, and makes other claims," a college statement said. He quit during an October 4 meeting with his parents and school administrators, and a follow-up letter warned that to return, he had to present a doctor's note stating that "his presence at the College does not present a danger to himself or others."

– On his YouTube page, a list of his favorite books included both Adolf Hitler's "Mein Kampf" and Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels' "The Communist Manifesto," along with works by George Orwell, Ray Bradbury, Ken Kesey, Herman Hesse, Ernest Hemingway, Plato and Aesop's fables.

– "Good-bye friends," read a Saturday morning posting on Loughner's MySpace page, just hours before the shooting. "Dear friends ... Please don't be mad at me. The literacy rate is below 5%. I haven't talked to one person who is literate."

– A December 30 posting read, "Dear Reader ... I'm searching. Today! With every concern, my shot is now ready for aim. The hunt, a mighty thought of mine."

– Online, Loughner complained about the "second Constitution," a term legal scholars sometimes use to describe the post-Civil War amendments that ended slavery, extended the right to vote and required equal protection under the law. Its meaning to Loughner could not be clearly discerned.

– In an apparent reference to Giffords' congressional district, he wrote in a December 15 video message on YouTube: "The majority of people, who reside in District-8 are illiterate - hilarious."

– In the same message he wrote: "If I define terrorist then a terrorist is a person who employs terror or terrorism, especially as a political weapon. I define terrorist."
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Re: Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot In Arizona

#64

Post by b322da »

Beiruty wrote:,,,The shooter has the following tendencies and views:
1) Extreme socialist (and maybe communist?), (Reference to Hitler book and Carl Marx book,etc)....
Hitler was a socialist and maybe communist? He was nothing other than a fascist. The National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP) used the word "Socialist" as one of his many ways to delude the German people.

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Re: Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot In Arizona

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Post by baldeagle »

I think the classical way of defining political systems is completely wrong. Both communism and facism are totalitarian systems. So I think it is incorrect to call fascism a "right side" system and communism a "left side" system. I believe a better way of defining political systems is from anarchy on the right to totalitarianism on the left. Somewhere in the middle is where I would put democracy and to the right of that a republic (which is what America is supposed to be.)
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Re: Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot In Arizona

#66

Post by 74novaman »

baldeagle wrote:I think the classical way of defining political systems is completely wrong. Both communism and facism are totalitarian systems. So I think it is incorrect to call fascism a "right side" system and communism a "left side" system. I believe a better way of defining political systems is from anarchy on the right to totalitarianism on the left. Somewhere in the middle is where I would put democracy and to the right of that a republic (which is what America is supposed to be.)
Amen!!! :clapping:

During the 30s, the most common party switch to make in Germany was not from Communist to Social Democrat, or Nazi to Social Democrat, but Communist party to Nazi party and back. Why? because they had the same goals!

The attempts to paint the Nazis as far right wingers are incredibly off base. They and the communists wanted the exact same things...Authoritarian control of the govt.

I'm with bald eagle. To me, it is incredibly misleading and ignorant to paint the spectrum this way:

Anarchists-Communists-Democrats-Republicans-Nazis

If you're going to insist on linear, this is my take. From Authoritarian on the left to no govt on the right.

Communists/Nazis-Socialists-Democrats-Republicans-Libertarians-Anarchists

Though a 2 axis description is far more valuable. I love this guys explaination:
http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=1644

Sorry for the rant, but Nazis as "right wingers" is one of my biggest pet peeves.
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Re: Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot In Arizona

#67

Post by powerboatr »

the big guy has sent the head of the FBI to az to assist.
not to belittle the situation, but why? doesn't the FBI have competent people there already
i know "flying the flag" for a washington to look engaged, but it seems to be wasteful of talent. He is a desk guy to run a huge department, not a field agent. But by the way he is speaking, he seems to be engaged or well briefed.

either way i am amazed at the shear number of law agencies involved, even TSA.
we are lucky the shooter was caught and not on the run,


one of the congresswomen s intern was on fox and he stated he ran to her and applied first aid, along with others rising to the cause and doing good :tiphat:
sounds like alot of people in the crowd did some heroic things and not run like deer.
maybe we as americans are fed up with senseless lawlessness and are standing up to those who mean us or or citizens harm.
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Re: Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot In Arizona

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Post by Oldgringo »

Beiruty wrote: Finally, why this shooter is not called a terrorist, or the incident as a terroristic act by an Anti-government agent is just mind boggling :headscratch :headscratch
The accused, or someone, certainly did engage in a most despicable and cowardly act of murderous terror against an unarmed and unsuspecting group of innocents. It is yet to be determined if the accused is a member of, or otherwise associated with, a larger group of like-minded cowardly assassins. I don't know if this answers your question, but it is a start.
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Re: Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot In Arizona

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Post by gregthehand »

I noticed one of his favorite books is Alice in Wonderland. I had a buddy that was in a psychological interview once for law enforcement and they made him take this big long test. One of the questions was if he could identify with the novel Alice In Wonderland. He answered no. Anyway later on during the actual interview part the doctor was asking him some strange questions and got around to asking why he felt that he identified with the novel Alice in Wonderland. He told him he didn't and he went and the doc went through his test and told him that they had accidently reported that he has said he had. He asked what that had to do with anything and the doctor told him that many people with pyschological problems will identify strongly with that particular novel.

Now I'm not saying that everyone who identifies with that novel has a problem. In fact I'm not saying anything. However hearing that before and then reading about it later and the relation and seeing that novel listed as one of his favorites is very interesting. In fact there is even a disorder that is named Alice in Wonderland Syndrome. It's linked to mental illness.
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Re: Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot In Arizona

#70

Post by powerboatr »

the sheriff there just said the guy had a 32 or 31 round magazine
and a LADY interfered when he tried to reload and she was injured and the guy must have flubbed up the reload and he was then stopped by leo's

way to go lady :patriot:


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alice in wonderland, really?
makes sense in some respect to how one may or may not handle situations, does one live in a fantasy world?
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Re: Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot In Arizona

#71

Post by Keith B »

gregthehand wrote: In fact there is even a disorder that is named Alice in Wonderland Syndrome. It's linked to mental illness.
AWS is a disease where the individual perceives sizes as different and not related to the question on the exam. The test question about liking Alice in Wonderland is really a bogus question, but does exist and can be interpreted in several different ways depending on how the person who wrote or administers the test views the answers.

Here is a post where someone asked about that particular question on psychological exams and a great response on what it is supposed to or not supposed to mean. http://www.straightdope.com/columns/rea ... al-testing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot In Arizona

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Post by OldSchool »

Oldgringo wrote:
Beiruty wrote: Finally, why this shooter is not called a terrorist, or the incident as a terroristic act by an Anti-government agent is just mind boggling :headscratch :headscratch
The accused, or someone, certainly did engage in a most despicable and cowardly act of murderous terror against an unarmed and unsuspecting group of innocents. It is yet to be determined if the accused is a member of, or otherwise associated with, a larger group of like-minded cowardly assassins. I don't know if this answers your question, but it is a start.
His motive seems to be personal (frustration, humiliation, revenge, etc.), and not targeted to using terror for political ends. Thus, not a "terrorist." Just massively criminal. Of course, I see true terrorism as criminal, no matter how you look at it.... :banghead:
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Re: Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot In Arizona

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Post by Excaliber »

AndyC wrote:
baldeagle wrote:I think the classical way of defining political systems is completely wrong. Both communism and facism are totalitarian systems. So I think it is incorrect to call fascism a "right side" system and communism a "left side" system. I believe a better way of defining political systems is from anarchy on the right to totalitarianism on the left. Somewhere in the middle is where I would put democracy and to the right of that a republic (which is what America is supposed to be.)
Sounds good to me - a much more logical system :iagree:

It would have the interesting effect of rendering some democrats as totalitarians and some republicans as anarchists :mrgreen:
There's nothing wrong with a little truth in labeling. :lol:
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Re: Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot In Arizona

#74

Post by Pyrat »

I think it might even be simpler than that. Communism and fascism are both about big government. It seems to really boil down to do you favor big government or small.
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