Shoot... Don't Shoot?

[HotLeadSolutions]

Hotlead said in part, "Also consider this: We do not operate under any different laws than LEOs. There are many times that a LEO unholsters a weapon in response to a unarmed threat. Remember there is a difference between unholstering a weapon, pointing a weapon, and using the weapon."

Oh my ! I hope you dont really believe this.

I fully believe this. I am not saying that we are the same as officers without badges...I am saying that LEO's and regular joe blow citizens must abide by the same laws in regards to weapons/force use. I know that if I unholster my weapon I better be ready (and justified) to use it. But there are times when you can (and legally) expose your weapon to bring the point home that you are in fear of great bodily injury, and not (at that moment) be justified in pointing it.

Case in point: I was in the parking garage of an upscale downtown building with my father. Three thuggish types (that had no business in this parking garage) came from a back corner and was making an intercept for me and my father. (we were the only car parked at this end of the garage, there were no pedistrian exits that they could have been walking to)
My father immediately produced his weapon (thugs about 75 feet away) and shouted "Stop where you are, do not come any closer" We made it to the car, and left the garage with the three guys stopped in their tracks wondering what had just happened. He immediately called 911 and told the dispatcher his name, location and that he was a CHL holder...that we had been approached in a parking garage by three thugs, and that he - in fear of what was about to happen - displayed his weapon and threatened force. They dispatched police to the location, and days later we were visited by a dectective and questioned about the event. (He was investigating some high end cars that were stolen from that garage)

After explaining what had happened to him, my father asked about the decision that he had made, and the dectective told him he was justified in pulling his weapon, and had the thugs continued on their path he would have been justified in pointing the weapon. (but that puts us on a slippery slope - In My Opinion)

Again I am not saying that a CHL is a Batman license or a license to arrest bad guys, but I do think the law gives us more choices that shoot/dont shoot.

[wford]

Just the fact that an LEO open carries should tell you that LEO's and non LEO's operate under different laws.

From your example I would say a DA could make a case for failure to conceal. If verbal threats alone are not sufficient for use of deadly force then I dont see how just being approached could be.

The penal code, as I read it, just doesnt seem to support your position. The only applicable defense I see for 46.035(a) is

It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a) that the
actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, displayed the
handgun under circumstances in which the actor would have been
justified in the use of deadly force under Chapter 9.

I was told in my last CHL instructor course that there was case law that upheld a failure to conceal conviction for a CHL holder telling someone he had a gun. I have never found proof of this however.

Hotlead said in part, "Also consider this: We do not operate under any different laws than LEOs. There are many times that a LEO unholsters a weapon in response to a unarmed threat. Remember there is a difference between unholstering a weapon, pointing a weapon, and using the weapon."

Oh my ! I hope you dont really believe this.

I fully believe this. I am not saying that we are the same as officers without badges...I am saying that LEO's and regular joe blow citizens must abide by the same laws in regards to weapons/force use. I know that if I unholster my weapon I better be ready (and justified) to use it. But there are times when you can (and legally) expose your weapon to bring the point home that you are in fear of great bodily injury, and not (at that moment) be justified in pointing it.

Case in point: I was in the parking garage of an upscale downtown building with my father. Three thuggish types (that had no business in this parking garage) came from a back corner and was making an intercept for me and my father. (we were the only car parked at this end of the garage, there were no pedistrian exits that they could have been walking to)
My father immediately produced his weapon (thugs about 75 feet away) and shouted "Stop where you are, do not come any closer" We made it to the car, and left the garage with the three guys stopped in their tracks wondering what had just happened. He immediately called 911 and told the dispatcher his name, location and that he was a CHL holder...that we had been approached in a parking garage by three thugs, and that he - in fear of what was about to happen - displayed his weapon and threatened force. They dispatched police to the location, and days later we were visited by a dectective and questioned about the event. (He was investigating some high end cars that were stolen from that garage)

After explaining what had happened to him, my father asked about the decision that he had made, and the dectective told him he was justified in pulling his weapon, and had the thugs continued on their path he would have been justified in pointing the weapon. (but that puts us on a slippery slope - In My Opinion)

Again I am not saying that a CHL is a Batman license or a license to arrest bad guys, but I do think the law gives us more choices that shoot/dont shoot.

[ruquick77]

I just got my chl last week and reading this thread I have a question. Say you feel your life or your families life is in danger and you pull your weapon but don't shoot because the threat ends. Do you call the cops and hang around to report that you pulled a gun on someone or do you leave. I'm thinking I should call the cops to report it because the bad guy might call the cops and report you for pulling a gun on them. I'm I right here?

[wally775]

ruquick77 wrote
I just got my chl last week and reading this thread I have a question. Say you feel your life or your families life is in danger and you pull your weapon but don't shoot because the threat ends. Do you call the cops and hang around to report that you pulled a gun on someone or do you leave. I'm thinking I should call the cops to report it because the bad guy might call the cops and report you for pulling a gun on them. I'm I right here?

Yes.

IMHO
Call the police and give them the situation.
I would not stick around since you had not fired and they could come back with friends.
You never know when the threat perceived or otherwise has called in on
man with a gun. At least the police know who said man is or was.
If the police want to talk to you they will probably instruct you.
If you do not call you will be the one late to the party.

Also, JMO, but don't think I would use the term "pulled a gun on someone"

[wford]

I would guess that for those times where you didnt feel the need to report the incident you probably didnt have cause to use deadly force.

For example a guy with murder in his eye approaches you with an impact weapon yelling he is going to kill you. There is enough distance and obstacles between you to allow you to draw without having to shoot. He runs away. Who wouldnt report that ?

OTOH, a "thug" approaches you late at night in an isolated area. You draw your weapon and yell stop and he runs away. Pretty grey area, IMHO.

[Purplehood]

I'm a bit confused from something my CHL instructor said in class. I understood him to say "never, never draw your weapon unless you have already made the decision to shoot because you believe your life is in immediate danger". So, what if I do feel my life is in immediate danger but because I have drawn my weapon, but not yet shot, the threat stops, runs away, falls down begging for his life? I drew my weapon and was ready to shoot but it turns out I didn't have to. Am I in violation of the law because I didn't actually shoot the person?

That is where you use your JUDGEMENT.

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

I just got my chl last week and reading this thread I have a question. Say you feel your life or your families life is in danger and you pull your weapon but don't shoot because the threat ends. Do you call the cops and hang around to report that you pulled a gun on someone or do you leave. I'm thinking I should call the cops to report it because the bad guy might call the cops and report you for pulling a gun on them. I'm I right here?

As stated above...YES!

Leave the area and call the authorities and inform them that you have been accosted. Let them know that you brandished your firearm in in response to the threat. Also, inform them that you left the area to avoid the threat returning. They will instruct you on what to do and how they want to handle the situation from there.

If you do not call you will probably be called in as a "crazy man with a gun". You always want to be the first to call.

Make sure you get as good of a description of the person as you can to give to them.

[g31357]

Hi everyone I am new to this forum and just took my CHL class yesterday (owned firarms for about 3 years though)

Didn't want to create a new thread but am very interested on what situations you should consider shooting. For example, you see a thug walking towards you (you don't know for sure he is up to know good, he is just walking your way), well if you pull out your gun you should be willing to use it then and there otherwise if you don't you allow the thug to have the opportunity to take you out with his gun, but then again the thug is still a few feet away from you so you don't know what he's up to yet. So what do you do? You pull out and unload at the guy just because he was walking towards you?? Turns out he was just walking your direction with no intent to harm you and just happened to look mischievous because of the way he's dressed. I don't know what to do in this situation.

[Beiruty]

Hi everyone I am new to this forum and just took my CHL class yesterday (owned firarms for about 3 years though)

Didn't want to create a new thread but am very interested on what situations you should consider shooting. For example, you see a thug walking towards you (you don't know for sure he is up to know good, he is just walking your way), well if you pull out your gun you should be willing to use it then and there otherwise if you don't you allow the thug to have the opportunity to take you out with his gun, but then again the thug is still a few feet away from you so you don't know what he's up to yet. So what do you do? You pull out and unload at the guy just because he was walking towards you?? Turns out he was just walking your direction with no intent to harm you and just happened to look mischievous because of the way he's dressed. I don't know what to do in this situation.

Those questions should have been asked or dissucssed in your CHL class.
In short, NO. You just saw someone walking your way. Keep distance and go the other way.

You can deploy (draw) your weapon when threaten by a deadly force (weapon) that can inflict death or grave bodily harm. There are many cases that are clearly stated in the law. such as robbery, kidnapping, burglary, etc.. where deadly response is justified.

[johnson0317]

Unfortunately, a lot of conflicts take place in your personal space, give or take a few feet. If you "feel" threatened and pull your weapon without any other provocation, then you have a few problems. At the least, you have just brandished. At the worst, you are going to get it taken away and used on you.

You have no duty to retreat in Texas, but your encounter does have to meet minimum criteria for you to use deadly force. This might be fear of deadly force being used against you, disabling force, or disparity of force. However, I would advise you to retreat. What I mean is that if you see this guy that gets your hackles up, cross the street, go into a store, reverse course...do something to separate yourself from him. Please understand that this paragraph is woefully incomplete. You need to learn what constitutes the use of deadly force in Texas. Read the statutes. See what Ayoob has to say on it. Read deeply.

Secondly, learn some form of close-in combat techniques that afford you the opportunity to stop an advance and to gain some distance between you. You need to have enough space to properly deploy your weapon, even if you are going to shoot from the hip. An added advantage is that you may be able to drop the BG and not need to use deadly force anymore...wouldn't that be better than trying to go to sleep that night knowing you killed someone? Not saying you should avoid using your weapon at all costs, simply saying use it only if you have to. That is why we got our CHL, to protect our loved ones, ourselves, and perhaps an innocent third party. Needless to say, a close-in encounter may leave you hurt, cut, bleeding...but that can be fixed as long as you can extricate yourself.

I am not going to suggest any specific products, and there are a bunch out there. I just received a set of DVDs that looks promising as it teaches you mainly those things that work well with gross motor skills. Most of your fine motor skills are going to go down the toilet as soon as your adrenaline dump takes place, blood is shunted to vital organs, and your heart rate hits 170+.

Anyway, just some thoughts. The idea of getting your CHL is not to pull it everytime you think someone looks hazardous, it is there for when they become hazardous.

RJ

[Fedaykin]

I think my CHL instructor said it best:

You as a CHL holder are at the same disadvantage as a Law Enforcement Officer. You can only respond to a deadly threat with deadly force. That means the Bad Guy gets to draw first, lunge first, swing first etc. All you can do is remain situationally aware, anticipate potential threats by giving them a wide path and train your muscle memory to repond before impact.

And yes, drawing your weapon without pulling the trigger is a use of deadly force.

The Bad Guy had to be threatening or attempting to use deadly force before you can do anything about it. You can't go through the parking garage at 9PM using a combat glide with your weapon drawn because somebody made something go bump in the night...

I can look very mean with my skull cap on after a long day at work heading to my vehicle, my wife was probably just yelling at me on the phone becuase I stayed at the office too late. If we happen to be crossing paths in the parking garage I'd prefer it if you keep your gun in your pants.

[g31357]

Hi everyone I am new to this forum and just took my CHL class yesterday (owned firarms for about 3 years though)

Didn't want to create a new thread but am very interested on what situations you should consider shooting. For example, you see a thug walking towards you (you don't know for sure he is up to know good, he is just walking your way), well if you pull out your gun you should be willing to use it then and there otherwise if you don't you allow the thug to have the opportunity to take you out with his gun, but then again the thug is still a few feet away from you so you don't know what he's up to yet. So what do you do? You pull out and unload at the guy just because he was walking towards you?? Turns out he was just walking your direction with no intent to harm you and just happened to look mischievous because of the way he's dressed. I don't know what to do in this situation.

Those questions should have been asked or dissucssed in your CHL class.
In short, NO. You just saw someone walking your way. Keep distance and go the other way.

You can deploy (draw) your weapon when threaten by a deadly force (weapon) that can inflict death or grave bodily harm. There are many cases that are clearly stated in the law. such as robbery, kidnapping, burglary, etc.. where deadly response is justified.

Well, in the CHL class we discussed this and there was no right or wrong answer. Basically the example the instructor used was this, he asked for a volunteer, then the instructor pretended he was a guy in the middle of the night standing outside your door..what do you do? The volunteer first said, he would open the door and ask "what are you doing here?" Before the volunteer could finish his sentence, the instructor pulls out his gun (fake gun for class) and goes "BAM!!" real loud. His message to us was "ACTION beats Re-Action"
He then says, let's try that scenario again. This time as soon as the door is open, the volunteer draws his gun out and shoots as soon as the door is open. Now the instructor tells us, well what if i'm not armed? I'm just some guy that works for the city checking some utility boxes in his backyard, or he is some mentally handicapped person, you just shot someone that wasn't armed, now your in deep doodoo. So anyways, no right or wrong was discussed, just wanted us to have something to think about. So that leaves me with questions still as to what you should do. Now obviously in the scenario, i wouldn't even have opened the door in the middle of the night to begin with, BUT the same type of choice can be applied to some thug walking towards you while your pumping gas. You don't know he is going to harm you, but if you dont act fast, he can get you in a bad situation.

[40khammer]

The best way for a bad situation to work out is when nobody gets shot. If you can escape the situation without anybody getting hurt then you're doing it right.

[drjoker]

Hotlead said in part, "Also consider this: We do not operate under any different laws than LEOs. There are many times that a LEO unholsters a weapon in response to a unarmed threat. Remember there is a difference between unholstering a weapon, pointing a weapon, and using the weapon."

Oh my ! I hope you dont really believe this.

He is right... in an ideal world. However, this world is not a utopia. Eric Scott's murderers are LEOs and they're still walking free.