encounter at wallyworld - calling all armchair QB's

[PeteCamp]

I agree with TAM's analysis and comments. Excellent advice. I want to make an armchair call here that no one has mentioned. Before I start a gunfight with one, and possibly four, assailants with my child present, I am going to do everything I possibly can to defuse the situation. No...I am not advocating "running away" from every challenge. Just using my brain to beat my assailant, if I can.

OP you have overlooked the very real possibility that one, or all, of these guys might have been armed? Would you be willing to see your son shot or gravely injured in an exchange of gunfire? Over what? Cussing and grabbing a shopping cart, or staring at you? Challenging your manhood? A friend of mine always says, "Choose carefully the hill you are willing to die upon."

One of the fundamental truths of carrying a weapon legally is that sometimes you will have to swallow your pride and even back away from a possible fight. I want to suggest that you go back and read what bronco78 posted and carefully consider that as a future course of action. His are excelllent thoughts.

My opinion here, but you seem way too eager to pull your weapon and shoot someone. Consider carefully the terrible consequences of a "bad shoot." That is a far more painful lesson for your son to learn than anything he might have experienced that day. I have seen the aftermath of far too many gunfights, and almost without exception it is bad, very bad. If you have to shoot, be as sure as you can that you are in the right and try as hard as humanly possible to avoid it.

I am not a lawyer. Just a guy who wears a badge. Good luck and may God watch over you as you raise your children.

[G26ster]

I agree with TAM's analysis and comments. Excellent advice. I want to make an armchair call here that no one has mentioned. Before I start a gunfight with one, and possibly four, assailants with my child present, I am going to do everything I possibly can to defuse the situation. No...I am not advocating "running away" from every challenge. Just using my brain to beat my assailant, if I can.

OP you have overlooked the very real possibility that one, or all, of these guys might have been armed? Would you be willing to see your son shot or gravely injured in an exchange of gunfire? Over what? Cussing and grabbing a shopping cart, or staring at you? Challenging your manhood? A friend of mine always says, "Choose carefully the hill you are willing to die upon."

One of the fundamental truths of carrying a weapon legally is that sometimes you will have to swallow your pride and even back away from a possible fight. I want to suggest that you go back and read what bronco78 posted and carefully consider that as a future course of action. His are excelllent thoughts.

My opinion here, but you seem way too eager to pull your weapon and shoot someone. Consider carefully the terrible consequences of a "bad shoot." That is a far more painful lesson for your son to learn than anything he might have experienced that day. I have seen the aftermath of far too many gunfights, and almost without exception it is bad, very bad. If you have to shoot, be as sure as you can that you are in the right and try as hard as humanly possible to avoid it.

I am not a lawyer. Just a guy who wears a badge. Good luck and may God watch over you as you raise your children.

This post says it all! I wish I was this eloquent

[kahrfreak]

Another option: Simply walk away and shop somewhere else. On the way out, let mgmt. know that you don't appreciate your son being subject to that type of behavior. I've done this before. I simply choose not to engage myself in confrontations unless absolutely necessary, especially when armed.

All this stuff about reasonable belief doesn't counter the fact that if you shoot someone over a verbal altercation, you will most certainly find yourself at trial.

[dewayneward]

WOW!!! Enjoy all of the comments and especially appreciates TAM's response.

I was a little taken aback by Petecamp's statement:

My opinion here, but you seem way too eager to pull your weapon and shoot someone. Consider carefully the terrible consequences of a "bad shoot." That is a far more painful lesson for your son to learn than anything he might have experienced that day. I have seen the aftermath of far too many gunfights, and almost without exception it is bad, very bad. If you have to shoot, be as sure as you can that you are in the right and try as hard as humanly possible to avoid it.

Eager to pull my weapon?? Eager?!?!?!? Are you kidding me? I look back on this event and the things that flashed through my mind was not one of "eagerness". I was realizing the consequences of this blowhard's actions could cause him his life if he were to advance on me. Where do you find "eager" in this situation.

I am wired to do the "right thing", which is help little old ladies across the street, help a hurt person, etc. I was this way before I had a CHL, the only difference is that I am licensed to carry a gun.

I have asked people to watch their language around not only my kids but other peoples' (even before I had children) kids. the NORM is not to have a potty mouth in public. I am not naive and think the kids wont hear it. By that logic, if people are showing pornography in front of my or other peoples' kids, then I should just "deal" with it so as not to cause a confrontation. That just doesnt make sense.

I politely asked the guy to "please watch your language around my son". It was a request. I didnt say "hey, you moron, shut up before I use my 1911 on you!!!". When this guy got agressive, my method of descalating was to ignore him and not respond to him (using the same logic in a road rage exchange....you simply ignore the person). When he grabbed the cart, he was trying to push it out of the way. I grabbed the cart to keep it between him and I as a barrier. I had my son there with me and was trying to also keep between him and the guy.

During this, I turned my right side towards him and my left was away (which is where my gun is). He had no idea (and I wasnt going to give him an idea) of that.

I did swallow my pride. I didnt do the "manly" staredown, I didnt take the cart and push it back at him, I didnt call him a pottymouth, I didnt shove the gun in his face. I did walk away from the encounter. I dont see where the "eager" comment comes in, but maybe I wasnt clear enough with what happened.

What I will say is that I will be reading/learning more about force and when I can use it. It does seem like the law is slanted against us average guys and that needs to be changed.

maybe mr cotton can make his seminars available on mp3. :-)

I am glad that everyone has made comments on this. It has given me some things to think about. I have actually thought about carrying pepper spray/taser....but I'll be honest, the 1911 is about all these britches can hold up

[karder]

I think you handled the situation well. If someone is being rude, vulgar, and loud in a public place, I just don't see anything wrong with respectfully asking that person to be mindful of children and others who are present. In this case the individual, who I doubt was a Marine, continued to make himself look foolish and tried to pick a fight with an armed man. You were reasonable and allowed him to continue to act like an undisciplined child. This is a guy who is looking for trouble, and unfortunately, he will likely find it sooner rather than later. Hopefully, he has also reflected on this situation and has seen that he was acting poorly and modify his attitude before someone less reasonable than you does it for him.

just my thoughts,

[dewayneward]

Another option: Simply walk away and shop somewhere else. On the way out, let mgmt. know that you don't appreciate your son being subject to that type of behavior. I've done this before. I simply choose not to engage myself in confrontations unless absolutely necessary, especially when armed.

All this stuff about reasonable belief doesn't counter the fact that if you shoot someone over a verbal altercation, you will most certainly find yourself at trial.

your quote about shooting someone over a verbal altercation is the thing I find issue with, by this logic, then the only time you would shoot someone is if you were being physically attacked....meaning that you were actually being hit before you shot. quite frankly, at that point, its too late to shoot.

If the guy would have removed the cart as my barrier, I would have felt that the physical attack was imminent and shot him. If he wanted to run his mouth, I wouldnt have shot him.

[lonewolf]

I tried to submit this a minute ago, but can't find it...

Just curious, what would you have done had you not been armed? Would you have acted/reacted any differently, knowing that there were four of them?

I have found in my hours on this forum many members mentioning how they have altered their behaviors knowing the terminal responsibility they have accepted as a part of their lives. Not engaging idiot drivers, just reporting to LEO....things of that nature.

[BTin]

Edited to remove my ignorance. See this post: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1262&sid=e31d6f746f ... 96ca96177c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[chasfm11]

Another option: Simply walk away and shop somewhere else. On the way out, let mgmt. know that you don't appreciate your son being subject to that type of behavior. I've done this before. I simply choose not to engage myself in confrontations unless absolutely necessary, especially when armed.

All this stuff about reasonable belief doesn't counter the fact that if you shoot someone over a verbal altercation, you will most certainly find yourself at trial.

your quote about shooting someone over a verbal altercation is the thing I find issue with, by this logic, then the only time you would shoot someone is if you were being physically attacked....meaning that you were actually being hit before you shot. quite frankly, at that point, its too late to shoot.

If the guy would have removed the cart as my barrier, I would have felt that the physical attack was imminent and shot him. If he wanted to run his mouth, I wouldnt have shot him.

I believe that there are a couple of other considerations. Please permit me to follow a bit of a tangent.

I used to reasonably "forward" about commenting on people's public use of cell phones. When someone in a checkout line had their cell phone in their ear AND was paying more attention to that conversation than the checkout procedure, I would say "excuse me but would you please finish checking out before finishing your conversation?" I never received less than glare and several times was treated to a verbal "mine your own business" tongue lashing. I don't do that any more. For right or wrong, I feel like I'm putting myself a risk - the exact thing that I wanted to avoid by having a gun available. Whether or not the situation escalated to some sort of violence (most of the cell phone talkers were women and there would have been no reason a deadly violence response from me unless they drew a weapon), I felt that it could put me in compromised situation. Now, I just roll my eyes and let it go. In my opinion, some of the folks who are willing to use a phone in the checkout line are the same ones responsible for road rage. Their tempers are just a fraction below the surface and I don't want to do anything that would trigger an angry response. I felt like I had more of bat man license before I got my CHL than I do now.

We use an RV to visit other States. Our last trip covered 10 States, 8 of which allowed me to carry with my Texas CHL. In preparation, I studied the deadly force and concealed carry statues from all of them. I quickly realized that I was never going to be able to put myself in a "Georgia mindset" where I could specifically recall the differences between Georgia's laws and Texas laws. The only possible solution was for me to determine the most conservative approach to the possible use of deadly force that any of those States require and use that approach wherever I go. Yes, it is more restrictive than Texas but I don't see anyway around it.

Lastly, I've pondered a post-shooting mental state. I absolutely will have no reservations if I'm attacked and will respond to protect myself and my family. I'm not sure that I could live with myself, however, if I felt that I had a hand in escalating the situation. This isn't at all about what is legal but I feel inside. De-escalation of a potential situation, I've discovered, is more about giving me the means to live with myself afterward. I am NOT responsible for someone else's actions, especially someone like the cussing nutjob that you encountered. I would have been more likely to request that he tone down his language if he had been alone or with one other person, especially a woman. Making that request in front of 3 male buddies has a much greater potential for a testosterone fueled response. Some guys feel threatened and would say so in court if they believe that you are challenging their manhood. Think of the speeches of gang members when they feel that they have been "dissed." I'm not saying that feeling is reasonable but it does exist in some guys. Again, I'm talking about my own feelings in a post shooting scenario. I've personally decided to avoid situations where I might play into an escalation to prevent my self recriminations later. When I personally weigh the consequences of listening to a guy cuss in front of my kids (when they were younger - they are both older now), I'd take that over having to go through the rest of my life thinking "I shouldn't have said anything."

[dewayneward]

I tried to submit this a minute ago, but can't find it...

Just curious, what would you have done had you not been armed? Would you have acted/reacted any differently, knowing that there were four of them?

I have found in my hours on this forum many members mentioning how they have altered their behaviors knowing the terminal responsibility they have accepted as a part of their lives. Not engaging idiot drivers, just reporting to LEO....things of that nature.

I wouldn't have done anything different (except for changing my body direction and putting my hand near my gun). Like I mentioned earlier, I am wired to do the "right" thing, help old ladies across the street, help people in need, etc. I have been asking people not to have potty mouths for a long time (just got a mental image of a tshirt reading "keeping people from being potty mouths since 1972" )

I will say that I have become more aware of my surroundings since I got my chl. I do threat assessments and things like that. If anything it has made me a "harder" person in that I am not as nice to people anymore.

so, in short, I would have asked the guy to please not use that language around my son, I still would have got between the bad guy and my son, I still would have grabbed the cart to use it as a barrier, I still would have bit my lip instead of responding (to descalate).

I am trying to teach my son right from wrong. After the encounter, we both sat down and he DID learn something. That not every confrontation will involve a firefight, he doesnt have to resort to violence, but needs to be ready at all times (how quickly everything happened). He learned what it was like to be the bigger person and walk away. I have told him these things a million times, but he did get to experience it and it has made a positive impression on him.

Also, we both have a background in martial arts and he was under the impression that I am bruce lee or something. Our instructors and I have tried to impress on him (and our 5yr old) that just because you CAN do something, doesnt mean that you do. if at all possible "walk away" in the sense that you dont become the aggressor. He also got a confirming lesson....that there ARE bad people in this world that look for trouble.

[kahrfreak]

your quote about shooting someone over a verbal altercation is the thing I find issue with, by this logic, then the only time you would shoot someone is if you were being physically attacked....meaning that you were actually being hit before you shot. quite frankly, at that point, its too late to shoot.

Keep in mind that you escalated the situation by confronting the man without clear provocation on his part. I'm just saying that if you go around armed, you should consider your actions and ask yourself if it's really necessary to confront an individual, or if it might be better for all involved (especially you and your family) to simply walk away, or ignore the behavior.

If the guy would have removed the cart as my barrier, I would have felt that the physical attack was imminent and shot him. If he wanted to run his mouth, I wouldnt have shot him.

All the same, you would find yourself in the situation of explaining the events that led up to the shooting. And in the end, it would be clear that you got the ball rolling.

if at all possible "walk away" in the sense that you dont become the aggressor.

Exactly my point.

[olafpfj]

I found this at another forum and after reading it I drastically changed my mindset about what my go/no go scenario would be. Granted this was an off duty police officer but the lesson he is espousing applies to all of us that carry. After reading it I now think about the quickest and easiest way to get out of harms way first and using my ultimate defense second. We all get caught up in the "defend your honor" mode but I now work constantly to just let it go and walk away.

http://www.calccw.com/Forums/experience ... -read.html


As for armchair QB'ing the OP...I think the OP over reacted and took the bait from an obvious bluff. People randomly beating people at the checkout in WW is extremely rare. Loudmouth idiots who bluff that they will actually cross the line and hit you are common. Generally I find that people will only cross the line when they are drunk or have no fear of the law (aka gang bangers). Usually both are easy to spot. Your description of the idiots lends me to believe that they actually stand to lose alot from a civil suit. If he was indeed a Marine, hitting you would have no small impact on his career in the military. A large part of my assessment of potential threats is to determine what my opponent stands to lose if they engage me. I'm not talking just the actual fight but the ramifications after the fight. Civil suits, a trip to jail, dealing with the police etc. I guarantee that those things will be in the back of the mind of your average blowhard but certainly will not a be a deterrent to a drunk or career gang banger.
I think to OP over reacted. The thug sought to intimidate and scare the OP and he succeeded. Had you drawn your weapon you would have completely looked the fool and would have likely broken a law or two. I don't think he cared whether you were armed or not as he knew you weren't about to draw and shoot him because he actually hadn't done anything and was never going to. He may well have been joking with his buddies on the way out "LOL...did you see him reach for his gun...hahahahaha". He bluffed, you bought it, and he won.

[lonewolf]

We all get caught up in the "defend your honor" mode but I now work constantly to just let it go and walk away.

Personally, my honor is what it is. I don't ever have to defend it. My honor can't be taken away from me. My life can. That will be defended.

Lots of good thoughts here, and many things to think about. I will say I appreciate this forum more and more everyday. This was one of those times when on any other forum some of the members would have gotten the flamethrowers out. That's why I hang out here. With the good guys (and gals, of course.)

[PeteCamp]

I get between my son and grab the other end of the cart and put my hand at the ready.

Maybe I misunderstood what you said. I assume you meant to draw your weapon. Correct? Please understand that had you drawn the weapon, given the situation you described, you would probably have been asked about eagerness by one of the investigating officers and quite possibly by a prosecutor in front of a grand jury. Far better for me to state it than for them to ask you.

If anything it has made me a "harder" person in that I am not as nice to people anymore.

Have you ever heard the phrase, "An armed society is a polite society."? As someone carrying a deadly weapon, we should go further out of our way to avoid confrontations.

Your testiness over my suggestion about being too eager to draw the weapon, only given in response to your invitation for comments, is telling. Maybe you shouldn't ask for comments.

[Oldgringo]

I get between my son and grab the other end of the cart and put my hand at the ready.

Maybe I misunderstood what you said. I assume you meant to draw your weapon. Correct? Please understand that had you drawn the weapon, given the situation you described, you would probably have been asked about eagerness by one of the investigating officers and quite possibly by a prosecutor in front of a grand jury. Far better for me to state it than for them to ask you.

If anything it has made me a "harder" person in that I am not as nice to people anymore.

Have you ever heard the phrase, "An armed society is a polite society."? As someone carrying a deadly weapon, we should go further out of our way to avoid confrontations.

Your testiness over my suggestion about being too eager to draw the weapon, only given in response to your invitation for comments, is telling. Maybe you shouldn't ask for comments.

You nailed it, Pete. There seem to be many folk who apparently think a CHL is some sort of Batman License and it's now the licensee's mission to correct the world's ills ala Bruce Wills and/or Nicolas Cage and various CD/TV shoot 'em up games, etc. These same folk may be missing this parenthetical phrase, "...(depending on the cops and prosecutors involved)..." , in TAM's dissertation above.

Scary....