Suspicious Street Encounter: true story.

[radioflyer]

While at an IDPA meet, a fellow shooter (I don't remember his name so we'll call him John) described an instance that i couldn't come up with a solution to:

A suspicious individual with his hands in his overcoat approached John and his wife on the street. John assumed a defensive posture and ordered the man to stop. The individual did not stop until John reached for his weapon. At this point John was aware that the individual could have been concealing a weapon-in-hand under his coat. A routine command of "show me your hands" could have given him an excuse to draw a weapon turning the situation into a gunfight.

At this point, John told the individual to turn around slowly and put his hands to his sides. The individual refused resulting in a stalemate. At this point, the individual is only a possible threat showing no significant aggressive behavior (only a refusal to comply). John has minimal justification in drawing his weapon as it would escalate a situation to either a firefight or put him in a legal quandary of bring portrayed as the gunman if the individual is unarmed.

John told me he lucked out when the individual eventually walked off, and he and is wife waited until he was out of sight to get to their vehicle. Still not knowing weather the individual was an armed attacker, what would you do in this scenario?

[lonewolf]

A lot of unanswered questions jump to mind:

How close was the subject when identified as a potential threat?
Was there time to evade/escape/enter car and leave, etc?
Time of day/lighting/other environmental issues?

I cannot say I would have drawn on the guy, since there was no apparent movement threatening other than approach. No threats, no conversation, no BG backup noticed/present....

Guy could just have been disoriented for some reason....

It'll be interesting to hear some of the responses to this scenario.

[Hoi Polloi]

Imagine being the other guy! You are walking along when someone in a defensive posture tells you to turn around and put his hands to your sides.

[OldSchool]

Imagine being the other guy! You are walking along when someone in a defensive posture tells you to turn around and put his hands to your sides.

Hands in an overcoat, no matter the weather, only puts that individual on my radar. It would take a lot more cues to cause me to accost (and I strongly believe that's the correct word in this case) that individual. If I had been the one in the overcoat, and were accosted in that manner, I myself would have felt even more cause to be concerned about the person accosting me, and I would have certainly refused those commands (while looking for a way out).

As we've done for real very often (typically unarmed), the most either of us here would have done (in the absence of other cues) would have been to keep our distance and continue monitoring the individual.

[radioflyer]

Perhaps I shold have clarified: The hands wern't in pockets....rather inside the flaps of the jacket opening....the location where some carry a shoulder rig.

[KD5NRH]

Perhaps I shold have clarified: The hands wern't in pockets....rather inside the flaps of the jacket opening....the location where some carry a shoulder rig.

Also, the location of nice warm armpits; the best place for cold, numb fingers.

[OldSchool]

Perhaps I shold have clarified: The hands wern't in pockets....rather inside the flaps of the jacket opening....the location where some carry a shoulder rig.

Also, the location of nice warm armpits; the best place for cold, numb fingers.

I must agree. No matter the weather, this (so far) is a case of overreaction.
Here's something for thought: Would the situation have gone the way it did were the first person unarmed?

[BB 09]

That would also be how someone with a "sprained wing" could be walking around in a sling.

[The Annoyed Man]

Perhaps I shold have clarified: The hands wern't in pockets....rather inside the flaps of the jacket opening....the location where some carry a shoulder rig.

I sometimes use a shoulder rig. I actually wore it today. Not to criticize your friend, but picture this: I'm walking down the street, minding my own business, with my gun in a shoulder holster under my trench coat. I see you and a woman by a car, and there's something suspicious about your vibe, so I reach inside my coat and get a hand on my gun, but I don't draw. As I get closer, you start shouting commands at me. I don't want any trouble. I just want to get to where I'm going, so I avoid replying and interacting with you and I just keep walking. You pull a gun on me. I don't want to escalate the situation by opening my mouth, or drawing my own gun, so I just keep walking, and hoping that you don't back shoot me after I pass. When I get safely around the next corner, I stop to throw up as waves of adrenaline wash through my system.

This encounter might have been nothing more than that, and the silent stranger went home and changed his underwear, still wondering what might have stumbled onto that would make the "bad guy" pull a gun on him. Were they trying to steal that car? Who knows?

[Oldgringo]

Perhaps I shold have clarified: The hands wern't in pockets....rather inside the flaps of the jacket opening....the location where some carry a shoulder rig.

...or a prayer book or a cell phone or a candy bar or a bandaged hand, or an arm in a sling, etc., etc.

John may have been very lucky that the "suspicious individual" left rather than answer John's challenge. BTW, where and what time of day was the "suspicious individual" observed?

[drjoker]

Dude,

Have you guys ever heard of firm verbal commands, tactical flashlights, and pepper spray?! I've said it before and I'll say it again, if all you carry is a deadly weapon, then if the situation was one that a deadly weapon is excessive, you would be left with nothing to defend yourself. BEFORE you carry a gun, carry pepper spray. Before you carry pepper spray, carry a tactical flashlight. Before you carry a tactical flashlight, learn to de-escalate situations with a firm voice, body language, an apology, etc. If you can't carry all that with the gun, then go WITHOUT the gun or just carry a mouse gun.

Just like the old adage, "Don't take a knife to a gunfight," here's an additional one for you, "don't take a gun to a word fight," or, "don't pull out a gun at a food fight," etc.

I've had a similar situation happen to me before. I was at a drive through at night and some goober WALKED towards my car at night. I saw him in the rear view mirror. So, I shined my tactical flashlight in his eyes and asked, "What do you want?"

"Sorry, I snuck up on you," he replied as he left.

Although there's no legit reason to WALK towards someone's car at night that's parked in a drive through, pulling a gun on him would've been excessive as he has not presented deadly force so there's no justification to put deadly force into the equation. No need to ESCALATE a situation that could've been DE-ESCALATED.

Stay safe y'all,


Remember, what gun/caliber you carry is not important. The most important weapon is the grey stuff in-between your ears. A gun is least important for self-defense because its usage is only in the gravest extreme as a LAST resort.

[Stupid]

Can't your simply just walk away? If not, how about run away?

What's the big deal here? Why the need for reaching the gun?

[Oldgringo]

Can't your simply just walk away? If not, how about run away?

What's the big deal here? Why the need for reaching the gun?

Does a CHL beget "suspicious individuals" and other BG/thugs/sodomites, etc. OR were they always there and just not noticed? Just wonderin'...

[OldSchool]

Dude,

Have you guys ever heard of firm verbal commands, tactical flashlights, and pepper spray?! I've said it before and I'll say it again, if all you carry is a deadly weapon, then if the situation was one that a deadly weapon is excessive, you would be left with nothing to defend yourself. BEFORE you carry a gun, carry pepper spray. Before you carry pepper spray, carry a tactical flashlight. Before you carry a tactical flashlight, learn to de-escalate situations with a firm voice, body language, an apology, etc. If you can't carry all that with the gun, then go WITHOUT the gun or just carry a mouse gun.

Just like the old adage, "Don't take a knife to a gunfight," here's an additional one for you, "don't take a gun to a word fight," or, "don't pull out a gun at a food fight," etc.

I've had a similar situation happen to me before. I was at a drive through at night and some goober WALKED towards my car at night. I saw him in the rear view mirror. So, I shined my tactical flashlight in his eyes and asked, "What do you want?"

"Sorry, I snuck up on you," he replied as he left.

Although there's no legit reason to WALK towards someone's car at night that's parked in a drive through, pulling a gun on him would've been excessive as he has not presented deadly force so there's no justification to put deadly force into the equation. No need to ESCALATE a situation that could've been DE-ESCALATED.

Stay safe y'all,


Remember, what gun/caliber you carry is not important. The most important weapon is the grey stuff in-between your ears. A gun is least important for self-defense because its usage is only in the gravest extreme as a LAST resort.

DJ, I'm not sure to whom you're directing this post, but I agree with you. (If directed at me, please don't call me "dude" -- where I come from that's an insult....)

If I were becoming more concerned about the individual, and we were getting within a few yards, and there were no one else around, I would start similarly to your suggestion, saying, "Excuse me" and waiting for the reaction, and maybe "Can I help you?" That typically puts the other person more off guard than when/if I start raising my voice.

[KD5NRH]

I don't want any trouble. I just want to get to where I'm going, so I avoid replying and interacting with you and I just keep walking. You pull a gun on me. I don't want to escalate the situation

Seems a bit late for not escalating at that point. IMO, when the "defender" draws, it's a bit late to hope for a nonviolent end to the situation; your only warning that it's going to escalate further (to you getting shot) will be if you're observant enough to watch his finger taking up slack on the trigger.