So what do you carry when you can't carry?

[llanite]

My office and its private parking garage are 30.06 posted and in downtown Houston. In all other respects it's a great company and I'm not inclined to change jobs right now. I do get out on the surface streets for lunch, partner visits, and trips to service companies and Houston's downtown is OK, but not great.

Question: what self-defense sprays do people have experience with and would recommend?

I have a knife that I've always carried, but I would like to supplement that with something that has more stand-off capabilities :)

[Dave2]

Question: what self-defense sprays do people have experience with and would recommend?

That depends on whether or not you smoke: " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RPB]

I haven't in years, but in the 1980s, I used to carry OC spray that was twice as strong as the ones carried by the PD back then, and I provided it to some of the Local PD officers who wanted something better than the Dept had purchased.

Got a Stun Gun/Taser? 6-cell flashlight which is NOT a club, but a flashlight? Got a legal length accessible knife? Metal barrelled inkpen? small flashlight, not a kubaton? got an umbrella with pointy thing on the end? Bat Masterson cane? got a 3 foot long HEAVY chain keychain? don't laugh, people notice my keychain, I rarely lock my keys inside, I notice the lack of weight ... (Richardson Police own the nunchucks I used to own in the 1970s, because a friend had them in his car when he shouldn't have... they were an illegal "club")

I have no experience with the GEL/FOAM type streaming "sprays" which which may not be blown back in your own face by wind ... sorry I'm not much help.

(Personally, I put a dead fish in my pocket and minced onions and garlic under my armpits ... no one comes near enough to me to bother me anyway, but then I don't have to go places defenseless very often)

[llanite]

(Personally, I put a dead fish in my pocket and minced onions and garlic under my armpits ... no one comes near enough to me to bother me anyway, but then I don't have to go places defenseless very often)

at least you're safe from vampires. Stray cats, on the other hand.....

[RPB]

(Personally, I put a dead fish in my pocket and minced onions and garlic under my armpits ... no one comes near enough to me to bother me anyway, but then I don't have to go places defenseless very often)

at least you're safe from vampires. Stray cats, on the other hand.....

You would think cats might endanger me ... in reality, Cats are repelled by all the flies.

[PetrucciFan]

FWIW, in my non-lawyer opinion, you can still keep a gun in your car in the private garage. You're not carrying under the authority of yoru CHL when it's in your car, so the 30.06 does not apply. That way you at least have a weapn on your drive to and from work and on your trips to "service companies". However, you CANNOT get out of your car with your gun while in the garage.

[karder]

I always carry a cold steel scimitar tactical folder and have done so for years. If I have to leave the gun behind, which is very rare, I still carry the folder. In fact, when I travel abroad I always just pack the knife in my checked bag and have never had a problem. That knife has been all over Europe, Central America, South America and Australia. As soon as I get on the ground, the folder goes inside my waist band where I would normally carry my pistol. It is not the same but is a lot better than nothing. I know the potential for getting in trouble over seas is there, but so is the potential for ending up dead, so I go with the blade.

[Zoomie]

Question: what self-defense sprays do people have experience with and would recommend?

That depends on whether or not you smoke: " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I was talking to a Tazer / OC instructor, who was saying this is one reason they train the police officers to use the Tazer first. (Pepper spray soaked suspect + sparks from Tazer = flaming suspect = lawsuit)

And I carry a knife (CRKT M1614SF) and a flashlight (Surefire E2D Defender) when I'm not carrying, which is most of the time, thanks to Colorado.

[The Annoyed Man]

I always have a Kershaw Tanto Blur, but for stand-off defense, I work up a case of stinky yellow diaper and scream like a girl.

[MoJo]

FWIW, in my non-lawyer opinion, you can still keep a gun in your car in the private garage. You're not carrying under the authority of yoru CHL when it's in your car, so the 30.06 does not apply. That way you at least have a weapn on your drive to and from work and on your trips to "service companies". However, you CANNOT get out of your car with your gun while in the garage.

Like concealed is concealed - - - 30.06 is 30.06 I'm not so sure about that... Charles?

[Skiprr]

TAM earns the award for best response of the day. He will be conducting a mini-clinic at the Texas CHL Forum Day on these very techniques. Don't miss it!

FWIW, in my non-lawyer opinion, you can still keep a gun in your car in the private garage. You're not carrying under the authority of yoru CHL when it's in your car, so the 30.06 does not apply. That way you at least have a weapn on your drive to and from work and on your trips to "service companies". However, you CANNOT get out of your car with your gun while in the garage.

Like concealed is concealed - - - 30.06 is 30.06 I'm not so sure about that... Charles?

I agree with MoJo that this a slippery slope, one around which we've had some brief, previous discussion but--to my knowledge--no case-law examples. Those earlier, purely anecdotal conversations seemed to decide that if you have your license, you are carrying under the auspices of that license: that the MPA (PC §46.02) doesn't trump a CHL, a CHL trumps carrying under the MPA.

Stands to reason, though. By obtaining a CHL you are effectively entering into a contract with the State of Texas and agreeing to obey all laws that pertain to the license. You can't arbitrarily choose when to abide by or ignore a signed contract, and in the same way, only IMHO mind you, you can't claim carry under MPA if you have your CHL.

Now, what happens if you have a CHL but leave the plastic at home (I never do; it's always with me) and have a handgun in your glovebox when stopped by a LEO in Texas, I dunno. I think an argument could be made that MPA would be in effect in that situation, but it might also be argued by an anti-gun DA that you're carrying without your license and subject to GC §411.205.

IANAL and cannot even spell "criminal attorney."

[ScottDLS]

TAM earns the award for best response of the day. He will be conducting a mini-clinic at the Texas CHL Forum Day on these very techniques. Don't miss it!

FWIW, in my non-lawyer opinion, you can still keep a gun in your car in the private garage. You're not carrying under the authority of yoru CHL when it's in your car, so the 30.06 does not apply. That way you at least have a weapn on your drive to and from work and on your trips to "service companies". However, you CANNOT get out of your car with your gun while in the garage.

Like concealed is concealed - - - 30.06 is 30.06 I'm not so sure about that... Charles?

I agree with MoJo that this a slippery slope, one around which we've had some brief, previous discussion but--to my knowledge--no case-law examples. Those earlier, purely anecdotal conversations seemed to decide that if you have your license, you are carrying under the auspices of that license: that the MPA (PC §46.02) doesn't trump a CHL, a CHL trumps carrying under the MPA.

Stands to reason, though. By obtaining a CHL you are effectively entering into a contract with the State of Texas and agreeing to obey all laws that pertain to the license. You can't arbitrarily choose when to abide by or ignore a signed contract, and in the same way, only IMHO mind you, you can't claim carry under MPA if you have your CHL.

Now, what happens if you have a CHL but leave the plastic at home (I never do; it's always with me) and have a handgun in your glovebox when stopped by a LEO in Texas, I dunno. I think an argument could be made that MPA would be in effect in that situation, but it might also be argued by an anti-gun DA that you're carrying without your license and subject to GC §411.205.

IANAL and cannot even spell "criminal attorney."

My leaning has always been that you are only carrying under the authority of your CHL when you need such authority to avoid violating a law related to carrying a handgun.

The MPA is an additional exception to 46.02, just like carrying on your own premises (house). So if you are carrying under your CHL in your car and can be charged under 30.06, then you can be charged with 46.035 for open carrying in your house... and a peace officer with a CHL can be charged for open carrying while working...and a CHL can be charged for open carrying at the range, etc.

[Skiprr]

My leaning has always been that you are only carrying under the authority of your CHL when you need such authority to avoid violating a law related to carrying a handgun.

The MPA is an additional exception to 46.02, just like carrying on your own premises (house). So if you are carrying under your CHL in your car and can be charged under 30.06, then you can be charged with 46.035 for open carrying in your house... and a peace officer with a CHL can be charged for open carrying while working...and a CHL can be charged for open carrying at the range, etc.

That's why I think the MPA and CHL issue may still be just slightly fuzzy and might need some additional clarification in the future. Your interpretation makes perfect, logical sense to me.

But if you look at PC §46.15., Nonapplicability, it flatly states:

(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:

...(b)(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person is carrying;

So this to me looks like the PC specifically renders §46.02 inapplicable, for whatever reason or logic, to a CHL holder who has a concealed handgun on or about his or her person and who also has a valid license on or about his or her person.

I think if you interpret it literally, it's saying that if you have a gun in your glovebox and you have your plastic with you, you are carrying under GC Subchapter H, Chapter 411, not under the exclusion provided by §46.02(2).

But I've driven this Topic somewhat off course by focusing only on the gun-in-the-car in a parking structure that's validly posted 30.06. I'll try to make up for that...

[Skiprr]

On the pepper spray front, I happen to like it as a carry option or accessory; some very experienced people do not. Like any tool, it requires some information and training to be effective. And what follows is just my opinion--take none of it as truth, just as hints for research.

For me, first and foremost, is the delivery mechanism. Aerosol mist or "cloud" should be right out of the question unless it has a powerful and focused pressure system that can reliably expel the mist in a tight cone until well away from the user. Even with no breeze at all, with a cheap aerosol mist you stand an excellent chance of being part of that cloud yourself if you employ it.

And that's one of the two biggest problems with OC (Oleoresin Capsicum, not Open Carry): if you use it, you stand a very good chance of getting some on yourself. If you carry OC, always carry a couple of decontamination wipes in a pocket. Most of what you'll find are Sudecon towelettes in a sealed packet; a little larger than the size of a packet of sugar, they unfold to an 8"x12" towelette.

It's not just the risk of a big aerosol cloud. Even if you use a stream delivery (it's like aiming wasp spray and can be reasonably accurate out to 10 or 15 feet) and hit your mark with a nice dose, a committed attacker can keep on comin'. If you then have to make physical contact to ward him off, it's easy to transfer OC onto yourself. If you're sensitive to capsaicin, even with the Sudecon wipes handy it can be two to five minutes before you'll want to try opening your eyes if you get OC in them.

Spray, get away, then wipe down your face and hands, even if you don't feel any effects. Don't take a chance on rubbing your eyes with fingers that may have OC on them.

And for that very reason, OC becomes a poor option if you're at extreme close contact distance. If the BG grabs you by the throat, for example, a spray to his face is almost certain to blow back on you. It might be worth the risk if you decide that's your only choice, but it's always best to get a couple feet clearance before deploying a spray.

That segues to problem number two: OC affects different people in different ways, and you can't count on it to be a fight-stopper. A small minority of the population seem to tolerate capsaicin fairly well, and a junkie amped up on various chemical cocktails may have a very different reaction to it than he might otherwise. So you need to consider OC as distraction in an encounter: a tool to break the BG's OODA Loop, but not as a tool that will disable the attacker. You have to be immediately prepared to follow-up or flee.

After choosing a delivery system, the next consideration is potential effectiveness of the particular brand of OC. There are a lot more on the market than there were 20 years ago, and choice isn't always a good thing.

We have Wilbur Scoville to thank for the measurement that is most important to us. He developed what he called the Scovill Organaleptic Test, what we know today as a measurement called the Scoville Heat Unit (SHU). We've gone way beyond Wilbur's 1912 test, however. Today SHU is measured by a standardized liquid chromatography test; no subjectivity involved. Relatively speaking, a non-pickled jalapeno comes in around 5,000 SHUs; a habanero in the 250,000 range; and pure, pharmaceutical capsaicin at around 15 million. You can't buy it at that concentration in a spray, and you certainly wouldn't want to play with pure capsaicin at home.

My advice would be to ignore any product claims regarding the percentage of oleoresin capsicum in the spray. That percentage figure can swing wildly from 1% to over 20%, but it really doesn't tell you very much because it doesn't measure the relative "heat" index. Not all sources of capsicum are the same, and judging by volume just doesn't work. For example, I have a two-ounce canister of Fox "Five Point Three" stream-delivered OC. It states 2% oleoresin capsicum and 5.3 million SHU. I've seen "bear spray" stated at 18% OC but less than 2 million SHU.

The more a product talks about the percentage of OC in its spray and avoids the actual SHU value, the more I'd be wary of it.

ASP makes an interesting product that you might want to consider: http://asp-usa-demo.com/oc.html:



It isn't a stream delivery, and it's about 2 million SHU, so not the best choice for me on either count. But its delivery nozzle is first-rate and, made of aircraft-grade aluminum, it doubles as a Kubotan or Yawara stick. It's slim, can be carried easily in a pocket, and doesn't look like a conventional pepper spray canister if carried on a keychain.