Anyone been to the Frontsight training

[Tamie]

So far, the people who like Frontsight are people who trained there, and the people who don't like Frontsight are people who didn't train there. That's an interesting split.

[JNMAR]

Oooops you left out the ambivalent ones, where do they fit in...oh wait, I really don't care. lol

[McKnife]

I've been to Front Sight Training Institute in Nevada... a friend invited me along since he had an extra 'free certificate' for the 4-day Defensive Handgun Course.

I considered myself a fairly experienced shooter before going in but I never had any formal training. I came out a much more disciplined and confident shooter. I enjoyed being around so many Americans with guns on their hips... it was a wonderful feeling. We even had story time! Fellow attendees and instructors shared their past experiences and "almosts" while welcoming feelings and critiques. I did not care for the elitist personalities of my instructors, but their methods definitely made a positive difference. I understand it's a business, so I went in expecting the marketing push. At no time was I ever uncomfortable, whatsoever.

I enjoyed the training and the competition... I was top shot in my class! I use their techniques everytime I touch my handgun. I've watched many gun shows and demonstrations where guest pro-shooters utilize the same techniques, so I know Front Sight is doing the right thing.

The question remains, would I go back? Maybe. I would consider taking the 4-day Carbine Course with my AR but the prices are wayyyy too high. I would prefer to take more advanced 3-gun course with more movement and cover/concealment scenarios.

I would recommend Front Sight to any beginning shooter or anyone with no formal training.

For those that are wondering, I used my XD-45 Service with three 13-rd mags, XD gear gun & mag holsters. I also used a cheapo Brinkman flashlight for the night-shoot. My buddy used my Beretta 92FS, three 15-rd mags, Blackhawk Serpa gun holster and a highly modified XD-45 Magazine holster. hehe We each used about 600 rounds of ammo. I used Aguila 230gr and he used American Eagle 115gr. Neither of us had any malfunctions or stoppages... however, us cheapskates were picking up old live rounds from the sand and using them to 'conserve' our good ammo. My buddy shot one round of 9mm that must have had wet powder because there was a huge cloud of smoke and he had specs of powder all over his face. No malfunction.

[HeeHaw]

The thing that kills me the most about all these haters is why are you trying so hard to tear apart a gun organization whose purpose is to train and educated people about firearms.

I thought your response was very useful and helpful -- up until you wrote this.

Well sorry you took it bad, but what I said is true. All over the net from many many people who have actually never taken a course from FS it is the same story. They heard from so and so that FS sucks so it must. Very very seldom do you ever hear from someone who has actually been there and spent time there that is sucks. (and sure there are going to be some, there always is, thats just business) Sure some people who may be well trained goes and takes the beginner class and finds it slow and repetitive but that is far from meaning it sucks. For someone who is new or don't know what they are doing, those first classes are amazing. At FS you have to go through the beginner classes before you can take the advanced classes and you have to score certain scores on the shooting test as prerequisite. The advanced classes are amazing, but sadly very few actually take them. They only buy memberships that allow them to take the beginner classes, and in reality FS mostly pushes the beginner classes is that is where they make most of their money. ANd without buying a membership it would be crazy to pay the list prices for those classes. I completely agree with that. So because many people only take that first class they have no idea what is offered beyond them.

Front SIghts main goal to educate people about shooting, it always has been and it always will be. Sure it is a business, and sure Naish is using it to try and make himself famous. That is obvious by all the material having multiple pics of him all over them. But the fact still remains that they train thousands of people every year and are fighting the fight of the 2nd amendment and all these haters are just tearing down a good thing when they have no personal knowledge of the school. I just get tired of everytime it is brought up on a forum those who don't know throwing out their uneducated opinions. If someone has been there and has something terrible to say about it and can back it up with personal experience then that is fine. But otherwise it is just hard to swallow when I have spent so much time there and know what it is like to sit and listen to a bunch of garbage.

The over-reaction of the "FS-defenders" to criticism does make me curious, though. Why the need to defend them in such emotional terms? Surely you can understand why some, like Hoi Polloi, might think that multiple accidental deaths and a class action lawsuit are justifiable reasons for being skeptical about the program?

Yet Gunsite has had a student killed while at a class being shot by other student. (not onsite, but it was at the hotel room as they were practicing so that may be a little harsh) Not to long ago a student was shot my another student in the shoot house being mistaken for a target. But it seems to be okay because they are Gunsite. All the negligence at FS have been students doing something to themselves. So that whole rational does not make sense to me. I am not justifying the negligence in anyway and think it is terrible in all cases, but it just cracks me up how people use that. It happens at virtually all the schools. When using guns at some point someone is going to get careless and it will happen. FS actually posts all the accidents right on their website. They do not try and hide it, they make it known and put it out there hoping other people can learn from it and not make the same mistakes. Apparently people still need to spend more time reading those accidents before they take a class, but alas

So anyway I will make my peace and end with that. Not my intention to offend, just stating it the way I see as being someone who has been their a lot and knows what FS is really all about. As far as those of use getting "emotional" about it. It is because we know what it is like and we enjoy so much going and spending a weekend training and making new friends with fellow gun lovers. Then to have people tear it down who have no idea, just aggravates us all.

[extremist]

So far, the people who like Frontsight are people who trained there, and the people who don't like Frontsight are people who didn't train there. That's an interesting split.

Astute observation my friend

James

[Hoi Polloi]

This is a specious argument. The people who read the information and decide to never go spend their money there in the first place are somehow not allowed to have an opinion while the ones who have spent money there and possibly bought lifetime memberships and are personally invested in the place's success, or who get kickbacks for referring others there, or who are hired by them, are somehow the objective and impartial sources of information to be trusted according to your model.

It seems to me that all over the internet, people who come into contact with the information about them form their conclusions and then are bombarded by a small group of posters who apparently, by their own admission, scour the internet and post to all of these conversations their defenses of the place. The two (edit: apparently I missed one and the count is now three) posters here who defend them, none of whom are regular forum participants here from what I can tell and one (edit: two?) of whom is brand new and signed up to post to this thread, said they're having this same conversation all over the net.

I've not seen or posted to this topic elsewhere, myself. How many times have the rest of us gone around this mulberry bush? It seems like people all over the 'net are independently saying the place is too great a risk and choosing not to go there while a small group of folks are spending large amounts of time all over the 'net trying to put out all the flames. If it was so great, why wouldn't any of our normal forum participants, someone those here trusted, have experience or know someone who does? Why would strangers need to be brought in to make mile-long posts about how we can't trust our own? It doesn't surprise me that the company in question requires that type of defense.

I think the evidence stands for itself so I will not be posting to this thread any more.

[HeeHaw]

Boy someone is trying to read way to far between the lines and is coming up with some interesting conclusions. To clarify so you don't have to try and read between the lines. I am a member of at least 10 to 12 other prominent gun forums. So yes, I can say all over the net because I spend a lot of time on these forums. And yes everytime people start trashing on FS based on uneducated assumptions and opinions I do what I can to correct them. Why? Because FS is a good place to train and to make new friends and acquaintances who are also gun loving people. So it really does bother me when people tear it down who don't really know.
And no, I don't work for them. And no I don't get kickbacks, and no I am not personally vested in their success. I just paid a little money up front and have gotten way more than my moneys worth out of it. Personally I plan on attenting other schools soon so I can get some diversity in my training as I realize there is more than one way to skin a cat.

I think the evidence stands for itself so I will not be posting to this thread any more.

I agree, and I am glad you wont be as you have no personal experience with the school and in reality your opinion holds no merit of the school or curriculum.

I think Tamie said it best.

[Charles L. Cotton]

So far, the people who like Frontsight are people who trained there, and the people who don't like Frontsight are people who didn't train there. That's an interesting split.

There are two issues with FS; 1) the quality of the training; and 2) business and promotional practices. both must meet my standards for me to train there. My concerns are with the latter based upon people who did deal with FS, as well as the absolute tripe put out in the FS promotional video mailed to IDPA members. I express no opinion on the level of training offered at FS.

Chas.

[wrightcrew]

Clearly, there are many different opinions on this topic. I have personal experience at FS, so I’m going to toss in my 2 cents’ worth to the discussion.

I suggested to my wife that we attend a FS 4 day defensive handgun class for our 15th wedding anniversary. It wasn’t really the destination she had dreamed of, but she agreed to go anyway. The previous year, I had obtained my CHL, and she received hers a few months before the trip to FS. Even though she had been to the range with me on several occasions and she did well on the CHL test, she was not comfortable with the idea of carrying.

The first day at the class was very uncomfortable for my wife. As it turns out, she was having a tough time coming to terms with the whole idea of deadly force. The class brought all of her internal issues out and that made her very uncomfortable. At one point, she was so stressed out that she actually barfed in the parking lot. Needless to say, we had a less than enjoyable evening once we returned to the hotel. However, I asked her if she wanted to go home, and she decided that she wanted to stay and give it another try. Deep down, she knew that becoming competent with a gun was an important thing to do, she was just having a tough time doing it.

The second day was a little better, but she was still not comfortable enough to participate in the class. The instructors were all very understanding and accommodating and let her know that she was welcome to join the class at any time. She did enjoy the lectures that occurred between range sessions. The second evening was better for us and she decided that while she did want to rejoin the class, she felt that she was too far behind to do so. I encouraged her to share that concern with the leadership at FS the next morning.

On the third morning, she spent some time talking with Brad Ackman (one of the managers at FS). She told him that she had come to terms with the deadly force issue and that she wanted to join our class but she felt she was too far behind. He promptly set her up on one of the empty ranges with another instructor who worked with my wife that entire morning. She joined our class after lunch and finished the course with us. She even did the shoot houses!

At the end of the four day class, she was both competent and confident in her ability to defend herself and her family. She now carries regularly. When we returned home, we decided to purchase memberships.

The following year, my Dad (who lives in another state) decided that he needed to get his CHL. He had not handled firearms since his youth, and had very little experience with handguns. I suggested FS would be a good choice for him. He joined my wife and our two sons (ages 10 and 7 at the time) for a 4 day defensive handgun class. I watched him go from no confidence and very little skill to a competent, confident CHL holder who now carries most places he legally can.

Are there other instructors who could have guided my wife through her transformation? Perhaps, but I haven’t seen them. I should mention here that when my professional workload was lighter, I spent a considerable amount of time serving as a volunteer range safety officer at my local range. During that time, I observed many formal and informal instructor-student sessions. I never saw anyone that even came close to the level of competence, professionalism, and people-skills that I observed in every FS instructor that I have seen.

So, in my first-hand experience, FS is two-for-two in performing what I would call carrying miracles. And, the instruction that I have received there has increased my own competence and confidence significantly. While I have observed (and corrected as a range safety officer) numerous safety violations at ranges around DFW, I have not yet observed a single safety issue at FS.

Am I biased because I have a membership there? Probably. But remember that it was these same attributes that prompted me to spend my hard earned money in the first place to purchase the memberships!

As for business practices – the marketing is annoying. There is no denying that. But, it also appears to be quite effective based on the number of students who attend classes there. As for other complaints about the business – I can truthfully testify that I and my family have always been dealt with honestly and fairly in every transaction with FS. My Dad did one of the package deals and received everything he was promised exactly when and how it was promised.

So, that’s my experience at FS.

[Tamie]

Wanted to see if anyone has been to the frontsight training and one really gets all the material and gifts that are mention in the ads.

You got the answer to your question from people who have been there.

You also got answers to other questions. It's up to you if those other things are important to you, just like it's up to you if it's important Kimber is in NY.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Did you know of the class action lawsuit that was filed and the claims made?

Of course, old news, not relevant to the TRAINING aspect of the school.

I didn't say it had anything to do with the training, but it has everything to do with how FS does business; it's part of the whole package that is FS.

Did you see the absurd promotional CD that Front Sight/Dr. Piazza sent to all IDPA members through IDPA HQ a few years ago? If so, what did you think of the claims?

No, didn't see that. I for one like the promotional CD that was put together that is given out if you request it, or attend the courses. Of course there were grandiose plans that were in the video that now are not realistically going to be completed. But the training facilities that are there now and operational are good and improvements are made each year. Will he ever reach his goal of building out? Who knows.

The video I'm talking about was sent by IDPA to all of its members -- once. In it, Dr. Piazza stated that no gun organization, even the NRA, could win the battle to protect the second Amendment. However, he, Dr. Piazza, could do it all by himself. He is so rich he has access to all liberal media types, especially in Los Angeles (yeah, LA) and that he was going to invite them to FS, the shooting Mecca. Once they learned to shoot at his facility, and listened to him, they would be instantly transformed to rabid, pro-Second Amendment journalists. But of course, we had to join FS and buy a lot in Mecca. It was absolutely laughable it was so bad. That was over ten years ago, so I wonder why we aren't Gun Utopia yet?

I don't know how any pro-2nd Amendment supporter can possibly criticize Piazza's Front Sight philosophy of trying to change the mindset of NON-ProGun people onto our side? Do you not agree with what he's trying to accomplish?

No, I absolutely do not agree that is what he's trying to do. Dr. Piazza has one and only one goal -- promote Dr. Piazza and of course make money doing it.

Do you not agree with his examples of Harley Davidson and how the image was turned around from negative to positive? I for one respect Larry Pratt, Tonya Mataska, Aaron Zellman and other spokesman on the video about what Front Sight's mission is. Do you disagree with the "mission" (not the sales pitch)?

I haven't seen the video you mention, so I can't comment. However, I did see Mataska on the video I referenced and she was just spouting the "Dr. Piazza can convince everyone" garbage. No, I don't think Piazza/FS has any mission other than making money and a big part of that is selling empty promises of a planned community, i.e. his "shooting Mecca."

Go to FS as much and as often as you like, but TexasCHLforum will not be used to promote it.

Sorry I hit a sore spot with you, that was not my intention. I was just offering an answer to the poster that had some first hand knowledge and experience with the training and the materials - which is what he asked. I don't consider that "promoting" Front Sight.

You didn't hit a nerve. No discussion of FS is complete unless it covers its business practices. I don't want TexasCHLforum members going to FS based upon something they read here without knowing about those practices ahead of time.

Chas.

[baldeagle]

You didn't hit a nerve. No discussion of FS is complete unless it covers its business practices. I don't want TexasCHLforum members going to FS based upon something they read here without knowing about those practices ahead of time.

Chas.

You have no worries here, Charles. I can't afford a $500 dollar training course here in Dallas, much less the high dollar stuff that FS is selling.

[jbirds1210]

I went and had a good time. I really had a better time with KinnyLee goofing around on the strip than I had at the school. The drive from Texas is beautiful in the winter. Kinny took me as a guest with his free certificate so I had no expenses outside of travel (and an awesome Emerson knife I bought in the pro shop).

The training (IMO) was a bit dated when it came to teaching the Weaver stance and thum-on-thumb grip. That said, the instructors had practiced these forms enough to be impressive and they did help some of the people improve.

Safety? I guess the firing line was fairly safe. I only refused once to participate with someone who I was partnered with. When I put my gun away and sat down, the staff realized the poor old guy was dangerous and issued him a rubber gun.

I would not choose to go back to front sight simply because they do not challenge their students in the basic (read affordable) courses.

I was able to skip the sales pitch by skipping lunch inside of the facility on the second day. There was no pressure on site to join their organization. The mass mailings are ridiculous and the phone calls are even more irritating.

Best part of the experience was the seminars, in my opinion, their awareness seminar is second to none.

Jason

[Vecco]

I went and had a good time. I really had a better time with KinnyLee goofing around on the strip than I had at the school. The drive from Texas is beautiful in the winter. Kinny took me as a guest with his free certificate so I had no expenses outside of travel (and an awesome Emerson knife I bought in the pro shop).

The training (IMO) was a bit dated when it came to teaching the Weaver stance and thum-on-thumb grip. That said, the instructors had practiced these forms enough to be impressive and they did help some of the people improve.

Safety? I guess the firing line was fairly safe. I only refused once to participate with someone who I was partnered with. When I put my gun away and sat down, the staff realized the poor old guy was dangerous and issued him a rubber gun.

I would not choose to go back to front sight simply because they do not challenge their students in the basic (read affordable) courses.

I was able to skip the sales pitch by skipping lunch inside of the facility on the second day. There was no pressure on site to join their organization. The mass mailings are ridiculous and the phone calls are even more irritating.

Best part of the experience was the seminars, in my opinion, their awareness seminar is second to none.

Jason

Just wondering it sounds like you did a 2 day course is that right?

[jbirds1210]

I attended (and graduated) the Front Sight four Defensive Pistol course. I even have my silver sealed photograph of Dr. Piazza to prove it!