CHL holder killed by police in Las Vegas at a Costco

[baldeagle]

I understand what y'all are saying, but your rights don't mean squat on the street. If a police officer abuses your rights, you can take him to court, but that doesn't help you when you're being abused.

Read the thread No Warrant? No Exigent circumstances? No Problem. How will that man ever be made whole again? He plead to a misdemeanor charge because the DA threatened him with four felony counts. He was completely within his rights and did nothing wrong, yet he now has a record that will be with him the remainder of his life. And he's very lucky he wasn't shot dead, just like Erik.

Erik doesn't even have that option. He's dead. His 2A rights didn't mean a thing when the officers killed him. If that doesn't make you at least stop and think, then you're not being realistic. I don't live in a high crime area. I don't frequent high crime areas. So I have to weigh the danger of being shot by police because I was legally carrying against the very remote possibility that something might happen to me. In my home, I have no problem. Elsewhere? I'm not so sure any more. Erik's death weighs heavy on my heart, for more reasons than one.

I can't afford an arsenal like some of you have. I can't afford to buy a different gun for each situation I might carry in. So I have to decide if the one gun I have is worth carrying in public, where someone might misinterpret my intentions and then, when panic sets in, I die because a cop was told I was armed and erratic and extremely dangerous and arrived with adrenalin pumping, ready to shoot at the drop of a hat or the slightest misinterpreted move on my part.

I've always thought of cops as the good guys. I still do, but now I think of them as extremely dangerous good guys. A threat to my life, if I'm carrying. I don't like feeling this way, but how can you not after what happened to Erik?

[Justin Franklin]

Folks, let's not go off the deep end here and conclude that millions of CHL / CCW holders should abandon concealed carry because of the single incident tragedy in Nevada.

If you take such a reactionary approach, you'll need to reverse course anyway the next time an innocent person is murdered in cold blood and couldn't do anything to stop it because he or she wasn't armed.

It is not reasonable to allow one complex adverse incident to influence one to abandon lifestyle decisions made for good reason over time.

The investigation into the events at the Las Vegas Costco is ongoing, and we'll doubtless find any number of useful lessons in what comes out.

At this point, I think we can reasonably take away at least the following points:

1. Redouble your efforts to maintain concealment and be especially conscious of this during movements that might expose the gun - bending over, stretching, putting stuff in the trunk of your car, etc.

2. If you're ever asked to leave a location because your gun was spotted, let the person know you are licensed to carry, apologize for the lapse, and leave right then.

3. If you're confronted by police while you have a holstered concealed handgun:

- Stop and don't move until you're certain you know what they want you to do.
- If the situation allows, tell officers you will do what they say
- Arms away from your sides and palms open generally helps reduce tension if it can be done without violating police commands. It also creates a clear record on any video that may be recording your actions.
- When complying with commands, move slowly so officers have time to process what you're doing and make corrections if they see something they don't like
- If you're given multiple conflicting commands, don't move at all until you and they can agree on how you should comply
- Under no circumstances put your hands anywhere near your holstered gun.

[PeteCamp]

Again Excaliber said it very well.

And let me point out one thing we may not have considered. IF the LVMPD officers acted in bad faith and broke the law, and IF they are convicted of murder, it WILL send a very chilling message to every officer who puts on a gun and badge to go to work in the morning.

As the nation moves inexorably ahead in lawful observance of the 2nd Ammendment by law abiding citizens, perhaps law enforcement agencies will finally realize that there must be some codified training regime for officers as to the legalities and their responses to citizens bearing arms. We can only hope that such training will prevent such an incident (if it is proven that Erik did nothing that should have forfeited his life in court) from ever happening again. My prayer anyway.

[WildBill]

And let me point out one thing we may not have considered. IF the LVMPD officers acted in bad faith and broke the law, and IF they are convicted of murder, it WILL send a very chilling message to every officer who puts on a gun and badge to go to work in the morning.

The LVMPD officers will NEVER be convicted of murder.

[dubya]

We may likely be waiting a long time for the results of the investigation on this. It's interesting the LVPD continues to state they have witnesses who say Erik Scott drew one of his weapons (everyone allows that virtually every eye-witness "sees" something different). I don't believe, however, I have seen ANY reports of an eyewitness who saw him POINT it at officers. We have no way of knowing if he was being told to put in on the ground causing him to remove it from concealment to follow instructions; it would be pure speculation. There is a 911 call from a cell phone close enough you can hear police commands that they will not release (understandable while investigation goes on) but it's amazing with all the cell phone cameras today that we have not seen a cell phone video of the incident. Rest in peace Erik Scott, thank you for your service.

Link to information on his memorial:
http://www.lvrj.com/news/man-killed-by- ... ml?ref=649

[WildBill]

We may likely be waiting a long time for the results of the investigation on this. It's interesting the LVPD continues to state they have witnesses who say Erik Scott drew one of his weapons (everyone allows that virtually every eye-witness "sees" something different).

It's interesting to me that some reports also state "inconsistencies" in the ear-witness accounts. It was reported that some people heard: "drop it", "get on the ground", or "get down." With three LEOs yelling orders, all of the ear-witnesses could be correct.

[Pinkycatcher]

(understandable while investigation goes on)

Why is it understandable? I'm just curious, I'm not seeing the argument for withholding this information.

[VMI77]

And let me point out one thing we may not have considered. IF the LVMPD officers acted in bad faith and broke the law, and IF they are convicted of murder, it WILL send a very chilling message to every officer who puts on a gun and badge to go to work in the morning.

The LVMPD officers will NEVER be convicted of murder.

If LEOs can shoot a guy 41 times for trying to show his wallet and not be convicted of murder, I don't think there is any question they can shoot someone who actually has a gun seven times, and not be convicted of murder.

[WildBill]

(understandable while investigation goes on)

Why is it understandable? I'm just curious, I'm not seeing the argument for withholding this information.

In order to come to a rational decision, one should evaluate all relevant evidence. Since all of this information is not available, releasing it piecemeal can lead to faulty conclusions.

[G26ster]

I understand what y'all are saying, but your rights don't mean squat on the street. If a police officer abuses your rights, you can take him to court, but that doesn't help you when you're being abused.

Read the thread No Warrant? No Exigent circumstances? No Problem. How will that man ever be made whole again? He plead to a misdemeanor charge because the DA threatened him with four felony counts. He was completely within his rights and did nothing wrong, yet he now has a record that will be with him the remainder of his life. And he's very lucky he wasn't shot dead, just like Erik.

Erik doesn't even have that option. He's dead. His 2A rights didn't mean a thing when the officers killed him. If that doesn't make you at least stop and think, then you're not being realistic. I don't live in a high crime area. I don't frequent high crime areas. So I have to weigh the danger of being shot by police because I was legally carrying against the very remote possibility that something might happen to me. In my home, I have no problem. Elsewhere? I'm not so sure any more. Erik's death weighs heavy on my heart, for more reasons than one.

I can't afford an arsenal like some of you have. I can't afford to buy a different gun for each situation I might carry in. So I have to decide if the one gun I have is worth carrying in public, where someone might misinterpret my intentions and then, when panic sets in, I die because a cop was told I was armed and erratic and extremely dangerous and arrived with adrenalin pumping, ready to shoot at the drop of a hat or the slightest misinterpreted move on my part.

I've always thought of cops as the good guys. I still do, but now I think of them as extremely dangerous good guys. A threat to my life, if I'm carrying. I don't like feeling this way, but how can you not after what happened to Erik?

I don't know if it will turn out that Erik was killed for no good reason or not. Too early for that. But, when I hear reports like this one, and the one where the guy holding the intruder at gunpoint in his home was shot six times, and the fortunately good outcome of a certain forum member being held at bay by multiple LEOs with their guns drawn, I'm afraid at this time I agree with Baldeagle. There seems to be no clear distinction in the mind of law enforcement, and I'm uncertain if there should be, between a GG with a gun and a BG with a gun, when the MWAG call goes out. I gives me great cause for concern. If some anti, for any reason, reports that they think you have a gun, even well concealed, and a MWAG call goes out, you are in a potentially deadly situation. I don't want LEOs to unnecessarily put their lives at risk on the chance I am a GG, but there seems to be a need for some sort of training to allow for that possibility. Perhaps such training exists. If so, some one knowledgeable clue me/us in please.

[seamusTX]

The classic definition of murder is premeditated intentional killing for a motive like hatred, greed, jealousy, or revenge. That is not the case here. The police officers did not put their heads together and decide to kill Mr. Scott.

Texas no longer has a crime called murder, and the definition of criminal homicide has been expanded to a degree that I find troubling (but I am not a legislator or judge). I don't know about Nevada.

Maybe the police here screwed-up big-time. Maybe Mr. Scott contributed to his own demise by some poorly considered action. Maybe we'll know the truth someday. Maybe not.

It is easy to be sympathetic to a man who matches the demographics of this forum's membership. We have to remember that 99% of the people that the police have contact with are criminals, lunatics, drug abusers or drunks; and that is what the police expect when they answer a call.

As for how to avoid this kind of disaster, I stand by the advice that my father gave me long ago: Keep it in your pants. "Some anti" is not going to notice a bulge. "Some anti" can barely notice open carry, as I have observed many times.

- Jim

[03Lightningrocks]

As for how to avoid this kind of disaster, I stand by the advice that my father gave me long ago: Keep it in your pants. "Some anti" is not going to notice a bulge. "Some anti" can barely notice open carry, as I have observed many times.
- Jim

That is kind of what I said a few posts back.....

[VMI77]

I understand what y'all are saying, but your rights don't mean squat on the street. If a police officer abuses your rights, you can take him to court, but that doesn't help you when you're being abused.

Read the thread No Warrant? No Exigent circumstances? No Problem. How will that man ever be made whole again? He plead to a misdemeanor charge because the DA threatened him with four felony counts. He was completely within his rights and did nothing wrong, yet he now has a record that will be with him the remainder of his life. And he's very lucky he wasn't shot dead, just like Erik.

Erik doesn't even have that option. He's dead. His 2A rights didn't mean a thing when the officers killed him. If that doesn't make you at least stop and think, then you're not being realistic. I don't live in a high crime area. I don't frequent high crime areas. So I have to weigh the danger of being shot by police because I was legally carrying against the very remote possibility that something might happen to me. In my home, I have no problem. Elsewhere? I'm not so sure any more. Erik's death weighs heavy on my heart, for more reasons than one.

I can't afford an arsenal like some of you have. I can't afford to buy a different gun for each situation I might carry in. So I have to decide if the one gun I have is worth carrying in public, where someone might misinterpret my intentions and then, when panic sets in, I die because a cop was told I was armed and erratic and extremely dangerous and arrived with adrenalin pumping, ready to shoot at the drop of a hat or the slightest misinterpreted move on my part.

I've always thought of cops as the good guys. I still do, but now I think of them as extremely dangerous good guys. A threat to my life, if I'm carrying. I don't like feeling this way, but how can you not after what happened to Erik?

While I also find this incident very troubling and share your concerns I think we need to keep things in perspective. Maybe this has happened other times that I'm unaware of but this is the only incident like this I've ever heard of. I've heard of many other instances of LEO's challenging people with CHLs and no one getting shot. I personally know someone who was made at a convenience store (in Florida). Someone called the police. When they arrived they just asked him to see his license and told him to be more careful. I was recently questioned by a Game Warden and Border Patrol agents (different times during the same afternoon in the same general location in West Texas) while armed with a large frame semi-auto and a J-frame revolver --if they noticed then they didn't care since no one said anything.

The guy in the No Warrant video used very poor judgment when he tried to pull out his cell phone at gun point --still, he didn't get shot. The charges are something else again, and I think have to do with the general environment created by 30 odd years of anti-gun propaganda in the media. What wouldn't have raised an eyebrow when I was a teenager now frightens ignorant people saturated by this media propaganda and results in "shots fired" calls to the police. The hysteria is no doubt worse in places like the People's Republic of California. The video doesn't say, but it's also possible this guy has a neighbor who doesn't like him, or is anti-gun, and called out the cops trying to cause problems for him.

Yes, if I ever have cause to use a weapon in self-defense I will be concerned about being mistaken for a bad guy --even if it's in my home should the police arrive while the situation is hot-- and I will take precautions to prevent such a mistake from being made. I won't be making any sudden moves, arguing, or pulling out any cell phones or wallets --and I won't be chasing bad guys onto the street with a gun in my hands. I followed various precautions for traffic stops --like keeping both hands on the steering wheel-- even before getting a CHL. I think when you look at the odds you're not at all likely to be shot by the police simply for legally carrying a weapon --at least in states like Texas where concealed carry is relatively common. I will consider this a cautionary tale but it doesn't make me fear I'm going to get shot by the police for merely carrying.

[WildBill]

And let me point out one thing we may not have considered. IF the LVMPD officers acted in bad faith and broke the law, and IF they are convicted of murder, it WILL send a very chilling message to every officer who puts on a gun and badge to go to work in the morning.

The LVMPD officers will NEVER be convicted of murder.

If LEOs can shoot a guy 41 times for trying to show his wallet and not be convicted of murder, I don't think there is any question they can shoot someone who actually has a gun seven times, and not be convicted of murder.

That was not my point. My point is that the shooting of Mr. Scott does not have the elements of the crime of murder. See SeamusTx's earlier post discussing the definition of murder.

[WildBill]

While I also find this incident very troubling and share your concerns I think we need to keep things in perspective. I will consider this a cautionary tale but it doesn't make me fear I'm going to get shot by the police for merely carrying.

Well said.