CHL holder killed by police in Las Vegas at a Costco

[TXlaw1]

In fact one does, Jim or seamusTX, have "constitutionally protected rights" on the private property of another - including life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

You can call me Jim or Seamus. I also answer to Casey. I'm not fussy.

Please educate me about how the 5th or 14th amendment due process clause applies to non-governmental agencies.

- Jim

No thanks, Jim. I don't have the time to argue constitutional law with you. I am simply responding to your statement "You do not have "constitutionally protected rights" on the private property of another."

You know as well as I - indeed, it is self-evident in our jurisprudence system - that just because I may be in your living room at your invitation you cannot take my life because I am on your property. You may tell me to leave and allow me to leave. But you cannot take my life and deny me my liberty simply because I'm in your living room where you invited me to be.

Good evening, Jim .

[seamusTX]

Let's try this again: Costco did not kill Mr. Scott. The police "allegedly" did. Even in Las Vegas, the police force is not a contract assassination squad—at least not these days. I can't speak about the past.

- Jim

[mctowalot]

I've been following this incident via the Vegas local news outlets and the comments people are posting have been enlightening to say the least. Let's just say there's lots of folks that can't comprehend the CC mindset. One prevalent theme is "why would anybody need a gun to go shopping at Costco?, and "this guy" had two guns so he was obviously going to shoot up the place!"


The worst was something along the lines of "This is what happens when ordinary people misinterpet the second amendment and go around carrying guns."


I don't know about y'all, but every LEO I ever met was an "ordinary person" with a badge.

Its obvious that there's no shortage of easy targets for the badguys out there.

<sigh>

[Purplehood]

The ONLY thing that I am taking away from this whole situation is STAY CONCEALED at all costs.

[TXlaw1]

Let's try this again: Costco did not kill Mr. Scott. The police "allegedly" did. Even in Las Vegas, the police force is not a contract assassination squad—at least not these days. I can't speak about the past.

- Jim

Let's try this again. I never said or even implied that Costco killed Mr. Scott or that the Las Vegas police were a contract assassination squad. That's what you keep bringing up, Jim, not me.

My response was only to your statement "You do not have "constitutionally protected rights" on the private property of another." Of course I do as I've pointed out earlier. Even if you had made this statement completely unrelated to the Costco tragedy, I would have had to correct your misstatement of the law that protects our rights. And thank God we have such protection.

[baldeagle]

The ONLY thing that I am taking away from this whole situation is STAY CONCEALED at all costs.

It has me wondering if I should carry at all. And I don't think I'm alone.

[lovemybersa]

The ONLY thing that I am taking away from this whole situation is STAY CONCEALED at all costs.

It has me wondering if I should carry at all. And I don't think I'm alone.

This is a terrible tragedy, but I think it would be a shame if incidents like these convince us that we should not exercise our Constitutional right to keep and bear arms. If you have a CHL, then you are LAWFULLY allowed to carry in the proper places. One cannot control the way others react, but we can control our own actions. I think the thing I personally have learned from this situation is not to argue my right to carry with the un-educated. If asked to leave, I will leave, and likely not return. I will also make the time to speak with the manager/owner about the situation, but not right at that moment. This whole scenario scares me silly, but I won't be leaving my gun at home over it. Just my 2c...

[Purplehood]

The ONLY thing that I am taking away from this whole situation is STAY CONCEALED at all costs.

It has me wondering if I should carry at all. And I don't think I'm alone.

Speaking strictly for myself, that is not an option. Though I understand your sentiment regarding the situation, I would have to weigh which of the following evils is more probable in my mind:

- the bad guys are going to get me
- the LEO's are going to get me
- no one is going to get me

Since I artfully arranged the three options in order of most-likely in my mind down to least-likely, I will continue to carry.

[Fangs]

Keep in mind that this is only one incident... out of thousands of daily carry CHLs all over the nation. Don't let it freak you out any more than someone getting hit by a meteorite or a bolt of lightning. Just learn as much as possible from it, and carry on.

At the same time, it does strike a nerve.

[03Lightningrocks]

The ONLY thing that I am taking away from this whole situation is STAY CONCEALED at all costs.

It has me wondering if I should carry at all. And I don't think I'm alone.

I can tell you of folks who have been carrying concealed for 30 years or more and never been outed. It is highly unusual for a person who is taking proper measures to stay concealed to be outed. Mostly it is show offs who think the gun is somehow raising their tough guy status and the folks who don't dress appropriately to conceal.

[Justin Franklin]

It has me wondering if I should carry at all. And I don't think I'm alone.

This is a very unfortunate event, but we need to learn and let it serve as a reminder that Concealed Handgun License means CONCEALED. In the event that someone does notice you're handgun and asks you to leave or says you can't have that in here, you should calmly leave the establishment and TACTFULLY take up the issue with management at a later time. Never try to defend your rights or educate the person on concealed carry laws when you have already been asked to leave. Tensions rise quickly when guns are involved and there is just too much potential for something to spiral out of control.

If you do not think you would leave or would be able to remain calm in a "someone noticed my gun" situation, then maybe carrying isn't for you. That is entirely your choice and you know yourself better than the anyone else.

However, I think you can learn from this and be better prepared to handle this should it ever happen to you.

[seniorshooteress]

The ONLY thing that I am taking away from this whole situation is STAY CONCEALED at all costs.

It has me wondering if I should carry at all. And I don't think I'm alone.

After my telling my hubs of this incident first thing he said was that maybe I shouldn't carry any more. I told him that wasn't an option so he then said I had better be really careful. Like another poster said odds of this type of thing happening as the norm are (hopefully) slim. Stay aware, stay CONCEALED. This story really should go nation wide so all CC holders could be aware of what could happened. The popularity of the pocket .380 could soar to even greater heights. No danger of exposure if it is in your pocket. You can carry 2 or 3 cause of the size.

[Purplehood]

The ONLY thing that I am taking away from this whole situation is STAY CONCEALED at all costs.

It has me wondering if I should carry at all. And I don't think I'm alone.

After my telling my hubs of this incident first thing he said was that maybe I shouldn't carry any more. I told him that wasn't an option so he then said I had better be really careful. Like another poster said odds of this type of thing happening as the norm are (hopefully) slim. Stay aware, stay CONCEALED. This story really should go nation wide so all CC holders could be aware of what could happened. The popularity of the pocket .380 could soar to even greater heights. No danger of exposure if it is in your pocket. You can carry 2 or 3 cause of the size.

And we probably should!

[Excaliber]

Folks, let's not go off the deep end here and conclude that millions of CHL / CCW holders should abandon concealed carry because of the single incident tragedy in Nevada.

If you take such a reactionary approach, you'll need to reverse course anyway the next time an innocent person is murdered in cold blood and couldn't do anything to stop it because he or she wasn't armed.

It is not reasonable to allow one complex adverse incident to influence one to abandon lifestyle decisions made for good reason over time.

The investigation into the events at the Las Vegas Costco is ongoing, and we'll doubtless find any number of useful lessons in what comes out.

At this point, I think we can reasonably take away at least the following points:

1. Redouble your efforts to maintain concealment and be especially conscious of this during movements that might expose the gun - bending over, stretching, putting stuff in the trunk of your car, etc.

2. If you're ever asked to leave a location because your gun was spotted, let the person know you are licensed to carry, apologize for the lapse, and leave right then.

3. If you're confronted by police while you have a holstered concealed handgun:

- Stop and don't move until you're certain you know what they want you to do.
- If the situation allows, tell officers you will do what they say
- Arms away from your sides and palms open generally helps reduce tension if it can be done without violating police commands. It also creates a clear record on any video that may be recording your actions.
- When complying with commands, move slowly so officers have time to process what you're doing and make corrections if they see something they don't like
- If you're given multiple conflicting commands, don't move at all until you and they can agree on how you should comply
- Under no circumstances put your hands anywhere near your holstered gun.

[baraco01]

As for me, I will keep on carrying as long as my chl permits me to do so.
Regardless if one is carrying or not, cops of as fidgety as the ones who responded at the Costco incident will likely "shoot first before verifying". Let us also remember that this kind of incident do not just depend on how a chl holder will react but also on what kind of officer will respond and how they handle the situation.
Let's just take a lesson or 2 from the situation and hope and pray that the truth of what happened be known. Let's also pray for the families of all those involved.