CHL holder killed by police in Las Vegas at a Costco

[seamusTX]

I'm referring to the discussion of Nevada concealed-carry laws on page 6 of this thread.

If the late victim had been carrying illegally (which is doubtful), that fact by itself does not justify the death penalty without a trial.

Furthermore, the minimum-wage English majors working at Costco would not be expected to know the details of the Nevada penal code with regard to weapons.

As for the police refusing to release the 911 "tapes," that kind of thing is typical of government agencies. All states now have some kind of freedom of information act, but agencies usually try to avoid conforming to it when they are embroiled in a controversy.

That's why the family of the late victim goes out and hires one of those widely vilified "trial lawyers" to file restraining orders and get subpoenas, usually in federal court in this kind of case.

- Jim

[baldeagle]

Excaliber, are you an LEO? (This is not meant as derogatory.) I get the impression that you are. I ask, because I have some questions for you, if you are.

I spent 20 years as an LEO and retired as a captain in a 200 officer agency.

My responsibilities included investigating indications and allegations of misconduct whether they arose internally or externally.

The only way to carry out those duties successfully is to question everything, go wherever the evidence leads, document every forensic fact, statement, corroboration, refutation and contradiction, and let the chips fall where they may.

OK. Assume for the moment that the "facts" cited in this case are fairly accurate; that someone(s) at Costco called 911 and stated that a man had "gone beserk" inside the store and he was carrying a gun, what would be the trained-for police response? Would the officers approach the building with guns already drawn? Would they be on a "hair trigger" thinking that the man already had the gun in his hand and might shoot at any second?

What I'm getting at, is what would be their mindset when they arrived on scene? Would they already be in condition red?

[Excaliber]

Excaliber, are you an LEO? (This is not meant as derogatory.) I get the impression that you are. I ask, because I have some questions for you, if you are.

I spent 20 years as an LEO and retired as a captain in a 200 officer agency.

My responsibilities included investigating indications and allegations of misconduct whether they arose internally or externally.

The only way to carry out those duties successfully is to question everything, go wherever the evidence leads, document every forensic fact, statement, corroboration, refutation and contradiction, and let the chips fall where they may.

OK. Assume for the moment that the "facts" cited in this case are fairly accurate; that someone(s) at Costco called 911 and stated that a man had "gone beserk" inside the store and he was carrying a gun, what would be the trained-for police response? Would the officers approach the building with guns already drawn? Would they be on a "hair trigger" thinking that the man already had the gun in his hand and might shoot at any second?

What I'm getting at, is what would be their mindset when they arrived on scene? Would they already be in condition red?

There is no single answer - there are too many possible unstated variables, and I can't speak to what the mindset of what any individual officer might have been, other than that he would be prepared for possible violence if what he observed at the scene corresponded with what he'd been told. That's often not the case, so he should have been prepared for that eventuality as well.

Bear in mind that I wasn't there, and I don't have access to any more information than you do. However, there have been some details published which, if true, would generally have had an influence on response tactic decision making.

Even if the initial call was as you described here, news reports have stated that one of the officers spoke to at least one store employee, observed Mr. Scott, and made a determination to allow him to leave the store with the rest of the patrons. I would interpret this to suggest that at this point there was no apparent threatening behavior that time. (If there were, the other patrons would be beating feet away from the subject and the police would challenge him where he stood.)

From published photos, it would appear that a person exiting from the store can't see someone standing close to the wall on either side until he's actually outside. These would have been good positions for a contact / cover team to take and approach the subject from behind a step or two outside the doors. The contact could reasonably have been handled one of two ways:

1) Advise the subject the officer needs to speak to him regarding an investigation and escort him to an area where he could be interviewed and, if necessary, arrested.

2) While executing #1, have each officer apply a come along hold to one of his arms to preclude the possibility of a reach for a gun and escort him to the interview area.

Given the information that has been published so far, confronting a subject surrounded by a crowd of innocents with guns drawn from exposed positions (not behind cover) would not have been my preferred approach, but then again, I wasn't there.

[PeteCamp]

Excaliber.....Thank you for your faithful service, sir.

[baldeagle]

Excaliber, I really appreciate your input, because you've BTDT. I think I need to start a new thread. Based upon the outcome of this situation, I think it's obvious that we, as CHL holders, need to game scenarios where other armed GG arrive on scene (for whatever reason), so that we can decide on survival protocols. Obviously, understanding how police train for these situations could have a dramatic influence on how we train for the same situations.

I'm not interested in trying to figure out what happened in Erik's case (or speculating about what might have happened). The investigations will determine that, and we will eventually know the results of those.

[joe817]

baldeagle posted a link to an interview with the father. Thanks for sharing baldeagle. It's well worth the time spent listening to it. The father is someone to be reckoned with. Please note that is 16:37 long.

http://www.8newsnow.com/global/story.asp?s=12809131" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[WildBill]

Here is an article from Las Vegas. I think that it provides some more information that gives a clearer picture of what happened.

Father wants Las Vegas police held accountable in son's death



http://www.lvrj.com/news/father-wants-l ... 87719.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[PeteCamp]

I think it's obvious that we, as CHL holders, need to game scenarios where other armed GG arrive on scene (for whatever reason), so that we can decide on survival protocols.

My somewhat simple solution, should I ever go to Las Vegas, is to invest in a Level IIIA vest and wear it!

[baldeagle]

My somewhat simple solution, should I ever go to Las Vegas, is to invest in a Level IIIA vest and wear it!

Which is fine as long as SWAT isn't shooting at you.

[Beiruty]

This story is consuming me. I still can't understand, 911 was called for non-violent incident that involved a misunderstanding about mere bottles. Why the on-site security handled with no help from police? Why the responding officers drew on this guy? If responding to "drop your gun" and the poor guy reached to draw and drop his gun, he got shot for that?!

It seems a real clear cut case of poor training on part of responding officers. Since, in LA both OP and CC are legal. LEO should be trained to deal with good guys with a gun. What if the CHLer was off duty LEO?

Poor training in handling and disarming a CHLer is the biggest threat from $40,000/pr year public employee whom we call a cop!

[Kevinf2349]

I admit that I haven't read the entire thread here but something doesn't add up here.

If an officer was close enough to tap the deceased on the shoulder, weren't the other officers risking hitting him when firing at the now deceased? Sounds like reckless endangerment to me.

That somehow doesn't add up to me.

Thoughts are prayers for all parties.

[GreezyG]

This story is consuming me. I still can't understand, 911 was called for non-violent incident that involved a misunderstanding about mere bottles. Why the on-site security handled with no help from police? Why the responding officers drew on this guy? If responding to "drop your gun" and the poor guy reached to draw and drop his gun, he got shot for that?!

It seems a real clear cut case of poor training on part of responding officers. Since, in LA both OP and CC are legal. LEO should be trained to deal with good guys with a gun. What if the CHLer was off duty LEO?

Poor training in handling and disarming a CHLer is the biggest threat from $40,000/pr year public employee whom we call a cop!

Have you ever played the telephone game? The employee tells his lead, who tells the supervisor, who tells the asst manager, who tells the manager "ZOMG A GUY IS RUNNING THROUGH THE STORE ON A SHOOTING RAMPAGE!!!1!"

It sounds like there is a lot of blame go spread around. Costco had no place calling the police, ask him to leave. Once discovered he really should have just left. The police seemed to be issuing conflicting orders.

It's obvious he was an extraordinary man. I pray for his family.

[seniorshooteress]

The media is so quick to pick up on a story involving guns but yet this story hasn't gone nation wide. So many people I have talked to haven't even heard about it. Guess I will have to call Fox 26 or Channel 13 news and inform them of a story they are missing. Every city should be sending reporters from TV, newspaper, etc to put some info of some sort out on this event. Let Las Vegas know that the whole nation is watching and waiting. I, too, am consumed with this event.

[WildBill]

The media is so quick to pick up on a story involving guns but yet this story hasn't gone nation wide. So many people I have talked to haven't even heard about it.

It could be a coincidence, but Las Vegas' main source of revenue is from tourism. Remember what happened in Aruba in 2005 when Natalee Holloway went missing? After that case was widely reported in the media, many people cancelled their plans to take vacation there, losing millions of tourist dollars.

[seamusTX]

The City of Las Vegas does not control what the national media pay attention to.

It seems this incident has been categorized as a "kook with a gun that the cops stopped before he could hurt anyone."

You can scope out the internet news coverage here: http://news.google.com/news/search?&q=% ... 2las+vegas" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's all local.

Why isn't this all over the "gun boards"?

- Jim