Utah CHL Instructor Story on WFAA

[VoiceofReason]

So when I’m 96, my hands shake, and I can’t see ten feet with thick glasses, I can get a Utah license and carry in Texas? That’s good to know. Yall be safe now.

Well, isn't that better than just painting a Scarlet "V" (for "victim") on your forehead?

For that matter, why shouldn't someone who is confined to a wheelchair and totally blind not be able to defend themselves? I don't seem to remember the Founding Fathers saying anything about age or infirmity in the 2nd Amendment. In fact, I'm pretty sure that they said, "SHALL NO BE INFRINGED". As such, even the requirement to get a CHL is an infringement on our 2nd Amendment rights.

Well I just skimmed over the Utah concealed handgun laws and actually from what I read there is nothing that would prevent someone who is totally blind from getting a license and carrying a gun.

Now, doesn’t the mental image of a totally blind person in a parking lot or apartment complex blasting away just give you a warm fuzzy feeling?

My concern is that this would give the Brady Bunch and the media some great fodder. Headline “It is possible for someone to get a license and carry a gun in 32 states without even being able to see what they are shooting at.”

Most states just recently permitted people to legally carry and a few still don’t. I would not want to see us lose ground because of this. Governments do not give people certain rights but they sure can take them away.

By the way, I am disabled and will probably soon be in a wheel chair but even I wouldn’t carry if I couldn’t see what I was shooting at or what was behind behind my intended target.

[Hoi Polloi]

There's a lot of talk of potential abuses. What is the reality of the situation? Do we have an epidemic of old, blind, shaking guys getting CHLs and then using them indiscriminately shooting up parking lots and taking out bystanders? Do we have an epidemic of non-resident CHL holders claiming that the reason they violated TX laws and had their licenses revoked was because they didn't know TX law?

It seems like we're shooting at ghosts here. I can understand that the media is doing it, but am surprised that it is gaining ground here.

It seems that those people who are knowledgeable enough about CHLs and who go through the process and then actually get the licenses (there are several threads here saying people regularly do everything except send off for the license) are motivated and self-policing so much so that they are less likely to commit a crime than a police officer. If that's the case, why not promote this and do PR to counter the illogical attack instead of perpetuating this fearmongering of what-if?

You know, the statutes don't exclude extraterrestrial lifeforms from getting a non-resident permit. Who is to say that they can handle guns designed for human hands? Haven't you seen Mars Attacks? I think we should exclude them from concealed carry as well. And we definitely shouldn't offer reciprocity to aliens!

[Significant Otter]

Heres my two cents...

If they want to teach utah chl here so be it , but the students should have to go through something per Tx Law also , they should have to shoot. False sense , I dont think so, they need to be taught where to shoot. Be taught our laws as well as their laws. Four hour class , really what can really be taught in that time frame?
Thats all Im saying.... end of story..... I`ll get off my soap box......

Lurking and reading some of the questions here from people who took the Texas CHL class (and presumably passed) it seems the value of the Texas class is pretty low in some cases.

I'm certain there are Texas instructors who are competent, knowledgeable, and devote the full required time to instruction. I'm equally certain there are instructors who misrepresent Texas law (perhaps intentionally, perhaps due to their own ignorance of the subject matter) as well as many who devote significantly less than the minimum time to bona fide instruction as required by Texas Government Code 411.188. Additionally, in an admittedly nonscientific survey, few Texas CHL students seem to receive the instruction required by 411.188.(b)(3).

On the whole, Texans with a Utah CFP seem to be at least as knowledgeable and competent as those who pass one of the many "One Day CHL" classes taught in Texas.

[Charles L. Cotton]

On the whole, Texans with a Utah CFP seem to be at least as knowledgeable and competent as those who pass one of the many "One Day CHL" classes taught in Texas.

What is the basis of this statement? What evidence supports this rather outrageous opinion of approximately 450,000 Texas CHL holders about 1600 CHL Instructors?

Chas.

[Hoi Polloi]

On the whole, Texans with a Utah CFP seem to be at least as knowledgeable and competent as those who pass one of the many "One Day CHL" classes taught in Texas.

What is the basis of this statement? What evidence supports this rather outrageous opinion of approximately 450,000 Texas CHL holders about 1600 CHL Instructors?

Chas.

Charles,

Among those who have their licenses revoked, is there a statistically higher percentage of people who have a non-resident CHL-equivalent license represented? Among those revocations of non-resident CHLs, is Utah statistically overrepresented in comparison to the percentage of overall licenses in use?

I think those numbers would observably show if Utah's non-resident license holders maintain the minimum standards for Texas concealed carry in comparison to those with a TX resident CHL.

[pbwalker]

On the whole, Texans with a Utah CFP seem to be at least as knowledgeable and competent as those who pass one of the many "One Day CHL" classes taught in Texas.

What is the basis of this statement? What evidence supports this rather outrageous opinion of approximately 450,000 Texas CHL holders about 1600 CHL Instructors?

Chas.

What's outrageous about the statement? My class was one day. I had many choices of CHL instructors. Are Texans with Utah CFP licenses NOT as knowledgeable as Texans with TX CHLs?

I must be missing something...

[LarryH]

On the whole, Texans with a Utah CFP seem to be at least as knowledgeable and competent as those who pass one of the many "One Day CHL" classes taught in Texas.

What is the basis of this statement? What evidence supports this rather outrageous opinion of approximately 450,000 Texas CHL holders about 1600 CHL Instructors?

Chas.

Charles,

Among those who have their licenses revoked, is there a statistically higher percentage of people who have a non-resident CHL-equivalent license represented? Among those revocations of non-resident CHLs, is Utah statistically overrepresented in comparison to the percentage of overall licenses in use?

I think those numbers would observably show if Utah's non-resident license holders maintain the minimum standards for Texas concealed carry in comparison to those with a TX resident CHL.

Texas, of course, dces not track revocations of Utah certificates. Answers to your questions may or may not be available from Utah (or other states represented by Texas residents holding certificates from those states).

The "one-day Texas CHL class" involves at least ten hours of class, written exam and range time, much more than is required for the Utah certificate or the Minnesota certificate (just to mention two).

[baldeagle]

Among those who have their licenses revoked, is there a statistically higher percentage of people who have a non-resident CHL-equivalent license represented? Among those revocations of non-resident CHLs, is Utah statistically overrepresented in comparison to the percentage of overall licenses in use?

I think those numbers would observably show if Utah's non-resident license holders maintain the minimum standards for Texas concealed carry in comparison to those with a TX resident CHL.

Unfortunately, it does not appear that Utah tracks non-resident license holders - http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/documents/2010Q1.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Hoi Polloi]

On the whole, Texans with a Utah CFP seem to be at least as knowledgeable and competent as those who pass one of the many "One Day CHL" classes taught in Texas.

What is the basis of this statement? What evidence supports this rather outrageous opinion of approximately 450,000 Texas CHL holders about 1600 CHL Instructors?

Chas.

Charles,

Among those who have their licenses revoked, is there a statistically higher percentage of people who have a non-resident CHL-equivalent license represented? Among those revocations of non-resident CHLs, is Utah statistically overrepresented in comparison to the percentage of overall licenses in use?

I think those numbers would observably show if Utah's non-resident license holders maintain the minimum standards for Texas concealed carry in comparison to those with a TX resident CHL.

Texas, of course, dces not track revocations of Utah certificates. Answers to your questions may or may not be available from Utah (or other states represented by Texas residents holding certificates from those states).

The "one-day Texas CHL class" involves at least ten hours of class, written exam and range time, much more than is required for the Utah certificate or the Minnesota certificate (just to mention two).

It is my understanding that 10-15 hours of class with range time and written test is one of the most extensive CHL requirements among the shall issue states. Is that accurate?

I think a comparison of percentage of licenses that end in revocations by state, subdivided by reason for revocation and any other number of data that can be compiled on the topic, would shed light on if these excess requirements increase safety and decrease revocations. I don't have the finances to underwrite such a study, but it is my understanding from transcripts of interviews that I've glanced over that John R. Lott, Jr's book More Guns, Less Crime does break statistics down by state and that it says that they are pretty consistent across states. I haven't read the book, though, so I would be interested in hearing what it says from someone who has.

[Charles L. Cotton]

On the whole, Texans with a Utah CFP seem to be at least as knowledgeable and competent as those who pass one of the many "One Day CHL" classes taught in Texas.

What is the basis of this statement? What evidence supports this rather outrageous opinion of approximately 450,000 Texas CHL holders about 1600 CHL Instructors?

Chas.

Charles,

Among those who have their licenses revoked, is there a statistically higher percentage of people who have a non-resident CHL-equivalent license represented? Among those revocations of non-resident CHLs, is Utah statistically overrepresented in comparison to the percentage of overall licenses in use?

I think those numbers would observably show if Utah's non-resident license holders maintain the minimum standards for Texas concealed carry in comparison to those with a TX resident CHL.

I have no idea what the revocation rate for Utah CFP's is or how it compares to revocation of CHL's. There is no reason to believe it is any better or worse. However, my focus is on your statements 1) that Utah CFP's are as knowledgeable as Texans with CHL's; and 2) your derogatory statement about Texas CHL instructors. Relative revocation rates have nothing to do with the knowledge of Texas law.

The Utah class does not, indeed cannot, teach Texas law. I am a Utah Instructor and we were told that we cannot teach any other state's law during the Utah class. If we are to teach the Utah class along with another state's class, we have to teach Utah first. Violations of either of these provisions are a basis for revocation of the Utah instructor's certification.

Therefore, a person taking only a Utah CFP course will not have receive any training on Texas laws. It cannot be argued that they are as knowledgeable about the laws that will govern their conduct, including the use of force, under Texas law.

As for the quality of instruction by Texas CHL instructors, I seriously doubt many incompetent instructors remain certified. Yes, we've heard of a few here on TexasCHLforum, but very few. DPS takes instructor complaints seriously and after a number of "bad" instructors were weeded out several years ago, the complaints dropped dramatically. Every instructor community from CHL instructors to flight instructors (not to mention public schools) have varying levels of competence and effectiveness, but that does not equate to incompetence or dishonesty. One thing is absolutely clear; advertising a concealed handgun class in Texas and not telling people it's a license from another state is hardly what I would call intellectually honest.

Chas.

[baldeagle]

In 2009 Texas revoked 164 of 402,914 CHL licenses - http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administra ... evoked.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administra ... tr2009.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In 2009 Utah revoked 409 of 214,403 CWP licenses - http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/documents/2010Q1.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What that means to you I have no idea.

[Charles L. Cotton]

On the whole, Texans with a Utah CFP seem to be at least as knowledgeable and competent as those who pass one of the many "One Day CHL" classes taught in Texas.

What is the basis of this statement? What evidence supports this rather outrageous opinion of approximately 450,000 Texas CHL holders about 1600 CHL Instructors?

Chas.

What's outrageous about the statement? My class was one day. I had many choices of CHL instructors.

It's outrageous to argue that someone who takes only a Utah CHP class is as knowledgeable about Texas law as someone who takes a Texas CHL course. The Utah course does not and cannot teach Texas law.

Are Texans with Utah CFP licenses NOT as knowledgeable as Texans with TX CHLs?

I must be missing something..

Correct, see above.

Chas.

[Hoi Polloi]

On the whole, Texans with a Utah CFP seem to be at least as knowledgeable and competent as those who pass one of the many "One Day CHL" classes taught in Texas.

What is the basis of this statement? What evidence supports this rather outrageous opinion of approximately 450,000 Texas CHL holders about 1600 CHL Instructors?

Chas.

Charles,

Among those who have their licenses revoked, is there a statistically higher percentage of people who have a non-resident CHL-equivalent license represented? Among those revocations of non-resident CHLs, is Utah statistically overrepresented in comparison to the percentage of overall licenses in use?

I think those numbers would observably show if Utah's non-resident license holders maintain the minimum standards for Texas concealed carry in comparison to those with a TX resident CHL.

I have no idea what the revocation rate for Utah CFP's is or how it compares to revocation of CHL's. There is no reason to believe it is any better or worse. However, my focus is on your statements 1) that Utah CFP's are as knowledgeable as Texans with CHL's; and 2) your derogatory statement about Texas CHL instructors. Relative revocation rates have nothing to do with the knowledge of Texas law.

The Utah class does not, indeed cannot, teach Texas law. I am a Utah Instructor and we were told that we cannot teach any other state's law during the Utah class. If we are to teach the Utah class along with another state's class, we have to teach Utah first. Violations of either of these provisions are a basis for revocation of the Utah instructor's certification.

Therefore, a person taking only a Utah CFP course will not have receive any training on Texas laws. It cannot be argued that they are as knowledgeable about the laws that will govern their conduct, including the use of force, under Texas law.

As for the quality of instruction by Texas CHL instructors, I seriously doubt many incompetent instructors remain certified. Yes, we've heard of a few here on TexasCHLforum, but very few. DPS takes instructor complaints seriously and after a number of "bad" instructors were weeded out several years ago, the complaints dropped dramatically. Every instructor community from CHL instructors to flight instructors (not to mention public schools) have varying levels of competence and effectiveness, but that does not equate to incompetence or dishonesty. One thing is absolutely clear; advertising a concealed handgun class in Texas and not telling people it's a license from another state is hardly what I would call intellectually honest.

Chas.

Just to clarify, I am asking about the numbers which you responded to in the first two sentences and Significant Otter made the statements you responded to in the rest of your post.

[Charles L. Cotton]

In 2009 Texas revoked 164 of 402,914 CHL licenses - http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administra ... evoked.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administra ... tr2009.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In 2009 Utah revoked 409 of 214,403 CWP licenses - http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/documents/2010Q1.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What that means to you I have no idea.

Now that's interesting. Here is the revocation rate per 100,000:

Texas: 40.79
Utah: 191.00

Chas.

[Charles L. Cotton]

On the whole, Texans with a Utah CFP seem to be at least as knowledgeable and competent as those who pass one of the many "One Day CHL" classes taught in Texas.

What is the basis of this statement? What evidence supports this rather outrageous opinion of approximately 450,000 Texas CHL holders about 1600 CHL Instructors?

Chas.

Charles,

Among those who have their licenses revoked, is there a statistically higher percentage of people who have a non-resident CHL-equivalent license represented? Among those revocations of non-resident CHLs, is Utah statistically overrepresented in comparison to the percentage of overall licenses in use?

I think those numbers would observably show if Utah's non-resident license holders maintain the minimum standards for Texas concealed carry in comparison to those with a TX resident CHL.

I have no idea what the revocation rate for Utah CFP's is or how it compares to revocation of CHL's. There is no reason to believe it is any better or worse. However, my focus is on your statements 1) that Utah CFP's are as knowledgeable as Texans with CHL's; and 2) your derogatory statement about Texas CHL instructors. Relative revocation rates have nothing to do with the knowledge of Texas law.

The Utah class does not, indeed cannot, teach Texas law. I am a Utah Instructor and we were told that we cannot teach any other state's law during the Utah class. If we are to teach the Utah class along with another state's class, we have to teach Utah first. Violations of either of these provisions are a basis for revocation of the Utah instructor's certification.

Therefore, a person taking only a Utah CFP course will not have receive any training on Texas laws. It cannot be argued that they are as knowledgeable about the laws that will govern their conduct, including the use of force, under Texas law.

As for the quality of instruction by Texas CHL instructors, I seriously doubt many incompetent instructors remain certified. Yes, we've heard of a few here on TexasCHLforum, but very few. DPS takes instructor complaints seriously and after a number of "bad" instructors were weeded out several years ago, the complaints dropped dramatically. Every instructor community from CHL instructors to flight instructors (not to mention public schools) have varying levels of competence and effectiveness, but that does not equate to incompetence or dishonesty. One thing is absolutely clear; advertising a concealed handgun class in Texas and not telling people it's a license from another state is hardly what I would call intellectually honest.

Chas.

Just to clarify, I am asking about the numbers which you responded to in the first two sentences and Significant Otter made the statements you responded to in the rest of your post.

Sorry, I'm lost. Let me ask you this. Did the revocation rates posted by baldeagle effect your opinion?

Chas.