Question on open carry for U.S. Military in Texas...

[srothstein]

OK, I see we need some laws read into this situation. First and foremost, if he was military and discharging his duties, he is allowed to open carry anywhere in Texas. 46.15(b)(1) makes 46.02 non-applicable to the military in the discharge of their duties.

Second, only the military can say what the discharge of their duties are. While dropping a child off at school may not sound like official duties, he is in the discharge of his duties if he has regulations requiring him to be armed at all times.

Third, there are so many exceptions to the Posse Comitatus Act that it is almost null. Active duty military can assist local police in many cases, such as drug cases, weapons cases, and border patrol. Two examples of this from Texas history are the military helping the ATF/FBI at the Branch Davidians compound in Waco (one of the complaints was that the ATF lied to Ann Richards by claiming drugs were involved to get he military equipment and training) and the shooting of Ezequiel Hernandez by marines on border patrol.

And given all of that, my money would be he was a poser. I am not involved in the military and have not been since 1983, but I know of no regulation requiring anyone to be armed 24 hours. I know general officers used to be authorized that privilege, but even they were not required to be. And, as many others have pointed out, most of the special operations soldiers do not tell anyone they are in special operations. Those that do will usually claim their branch, not spec ops (except for a very few whose branch is still classified - like Delta Force was when it was first started). I strongly agree that the police should be called if he shows up again.

There is an Armed Force Police unit in San Antonio that can tell you if he is active duty and where he is stationed. They would take a report on this incident and refer it to the appropriate unit if he is in violation. The MP's at Ft. Hood would probably also due this. I recommend the current incident be reported to the military to prevent a case of stolen valor.

[E.Marquez]

There is some accurate general Texas law spread through out this thread..
Here is some accurate basic Military information to go with it.
MP's do not carry off duty,, on or off post, they turn in there weapons to the arms room just like every other Soldier after duty.

No commander I've met, known, read about, seen, heard about is out there authorizing his (her) Soldiers to take a military weapon off post in open carry.. their are no military duties to be discharged in such a manner as far as my 24 years of service can come up with..

If a Soldier desires to carry a weapon off duty, off post he falls under state laws, just like the rest of the citizens of Texas. There job as a soldier does not except them from State law as their are not discharging there duties (that TX law is to cover NG and reserve soldiers discharging duties when called to duty IMHO).... In fact,, it is just the opposite I'm asking for...
Let us (military folks) be allowed to carry IAW the state laws of where our post is located (ie concealed carry if so licensed) vice the bull that was enacted by presidential order some years back that forbids us from doing so on military installations.

OK, I see we need some laws read into this situation. First and foremost, if he was military and discharging his duties, he is allowed to open carry anywhere in Texas. 46.15(b)(1) makes 46.02 non-applicable to the military in the discharge of their duties.

Second, only the military can say what the discharge of their duties are. While dropping a child off at school may not sound like official duties, he is in the discharge of his duties if he has regulations requiring him to be armed at all times.

Third, there are so many exceptions to the Posse Comitatus Act that it is almost null. Active duty military can assist local police in many cases, such as drug cases, weapons cases, and border patrol. Two examples of this from Texas history are the military helping the ATF/FBI at the Branch Davidians compound in Waco (one of the complaints was that the ATF lied to Ann Richards by claiming drugs were involved to get he military equipment and training) and the shooting of Ezequiel Hernandez by marines on border patrol.

And given all of that, my money would be he was a poser. I am not involved in the military and have not been since 1983, but I know of no regulation requiring anyone to be armed 24 hours. I know general officers used to be authorized that privilege, but even they were not required to be. And, as many others have pointed out, most of the special operations soldiers do not tell anyone they are in special operations. Those that do will usually claim their branch, not spec ops (except for a very few whose branch is still classified - like Delta Force was when it was first started). I strongly agree that the police should be called if he shows up again.

There is an Armed Force Police unit in San Antonio that can tell you if he is active duty and where he is stationed. They would take a report on this incident and refer it to the appropriate unit if he is in violation. The MP's at Ft. Hood would probably also due this. I recommend the current incident be reported to the military to prevent a case of stolen valor.

[srothstein]

No commander I've met, known, read about, seen, heard about is out there authorizing his (her) Soldiers to take a military weapon off post in open carry.. their are no military duties to be discharged in such a manner as far as my 24 years of service can come up with.

CID carries off post all the time since their patrol area is usually counties wide and they have to check all the school ROTC units and the recruiter stations too.

And the commander of the Armed Forces Police Detachment in San Antonio has all of his men open carry off post. They are in uniform, on patrol around the city, and based out of the city police headquarters. They were very helpful when we had a situation involving an active duty service member.

So, there definitely are military personnel open carrying off post. Most are in uniform, but some are in civilian clothes. The civilian clothes people usually carry concealed, but, like many cops, they get lax about putting their jackets back on every so often.

[ScottDLS]

OK, I see we need some laws read into this situation. First and foremost, if he was military and discharging his duties, he is allowed to open carry anywhere in Texas. 46.15(b)(1) makes 46.02 non-applicable to the military in the discharge of their duties.
....

Minor quibble. Since we're talking about inside a school building, 46.03 not 46.02 applies. However, 46.03 provides a "defense to prosecution" for military discharging their duties, which has virtually the same effect. So I agree with your basic premise.

-Scott

[G26ster]

No commander I've met, known, read about, seen, heard about is out there authorizing his (her) Soldiers to take a military weapon off post in open carry.. their are no military duties to be discharged in such a manner as far as my 24 years of service can come up with.

CID carries off post all the time since their patrol area is usually counties wide and they have to check all the school ROTC units and the recruiter stations too.

And the commander of the Armed Forces Police Detachment in San Antonio has all of his men open carry off post. They are in uniform, on patrol around the city, and based out of the city police headquarters. They were very helpful when we had a situation involving an active duty service member.

So, there definitely are military personnel open carrying off post. Most are in uniform, but some are in civilian clothes. The civilian clothes people usually carry concealed, but, like many cops, they get lax about putting their jackets back on every so often.

One thing about Military Police, that I don't think is an issue relating to the OP. Military Police (except CID, who are the equivalent of MP detectives) wear uniforms clearly indicating they are police. An MP arm band, and an MP on the helmet liner. Yes, they carry off post, but only on duty as I recall. The Op stated, "The Soldier said he was "Spec-ops," (or Special Forces) and was required to carry his side-arm at all times." A military brat, as she calls herself, would clearly know an MP on duty was allowed to be armed IMHO. This "Special Forces" statement should have raised a huge red flag and should have been acted upon as many have said.

[Originalist]

No commander I've met, known, read about, seen, heard about is out there authorizing his (her) Soldiers to take a military weapon off post in open carry.. their are no military duties to be discharged in such a manner as far as my 24 years of service can come up with.

CID carries off post all the time since their patrol area is usually counties wide and they have to check all the school ROTC units and the recruiter stations too.

And the commander of the Armed Forces Police Detachment in San Antonio has all of his men open carry off post. They are in uniform, on patrol around the city, and based out of the city police headquarters. They were very helpful when we had a situation involving an active duty service member.

So, there definitely are military personnel open carrying off post. Most are in uniform, but some are in civilian clothes. The civilian clothes people usually carry concealed, but, like many cops, they get lax about putting their jackets back on every so often.

Lackland "used to have" an Armed Forces Police Detachement at SAPD but that program has been obsolete for 8+ years now. AD Personnel can and have carried off base and here are a few exceptions: SP Investigator following up crimes committed on base with remnant being off base (item stolen on sold at pawn shop off base), they can server warrants, etc on military persons living off base (w/ Local LEO assistance), or any investigation involving US Servicemembers, Every year during FIesta we have a contingent of USAF SPs downtown patrolling the carnival, market square and NIOSA. We have jurisdiction over US Servicemembers "wherever they are; on land, on the sea, in space, etc. We can excercise supremecy over state on any servicemember. In fact I can be downtown, see a crime commited (while on duty) and once that person is id'd as military - he belongs to me. Additionally, I am required to patrol off base because some things are geographically seperated. Then you have places where there is concurrent jurisdiction - meaning both fed and state have police powers Like Wright-Patterson AFB in Ohio, they have the biggest off base patrol sector and quite often deal with non base affiliated civilians.

[E.Marquez]

So after posting what i did, I realized, , even the MP's on Fort Hood technically carry off post, as the move from one side of Fort Hood, across 190 to west fort hood
And too,, I was only speaking about Army folks, not AF, Navy, or any other military unit as I have little personal knowledge in that area.
Yes CID does regularly carry off post in civilian cloths, as that IS there duty uniform..... that would one large exception.

MP's have no authority off post as far as I know.. ( if that is not so, myself and a few thousand other senior leaders on fort hood would like to know by what law and regulation..cuz folks have some splaning to do)
That is what i have seen, that is what is briefed by the PMO's office, that is what the lawyers and JAG Corps tell us.
In days gone past,, Unit leadership (non MP) used to go grab soldiers off post for a verity of reasons, AWOL, drunk and disorderly, ect ect.. not any more,, fastest way to get arrested by Local police is to go do your job as a NCO.. OFF POST... And Once upon a time both MP's and Senior NCOS used to patrol off post to maintain a Military presence to both help keep the soldiers straight and to receive those caught by LEO in minor offenses. So they could be transported back to post and dealt with by the unit commander.. again,,,not any more.

My apologies for any confusion I added to this thread

I'm a Infrantry Sergeant Major, not a an MP or lawyer

[aardwolf]

This is one reason why the President can't really order National Guard troops to the border to prohibit illegal immigration. If the President orders the National Guard to the border, they would then be doing so while under Federal orders. Border security in the US is a law enforcement, not military, activity.

Defending a country's borders from foreign invaders is a legitimate military function.

[chabouk]

In days gone past,, Unit leadership (non MP) used to go grab soldiers off post for a verity of reasons, AWOL, drunk and disorderly, ect ect.. not any more,, fastest way to get arrested by Local police is to go do your job as a NCO.. OFF POST... And Once upon a time both MP's and Senior NCOS used to patrol off post to maintain a Military presence to both help keep the soldiers straight and to receive those caught by LEO in minor offenses.

Yes, we used "Courtesy Patrol", wearing CP brassards, during my time in the Army in Germany in the '80s. They did the same at Hood in the '50s, but Dad always said the CP stood for "Cathouse Patrol".

[Originalist]

MPs absolutely have authority off post/base..... over military personnel and violations of the UCMJ (as it is federal law). becuase it applies to servicemembers everywhere at all times. We cannot enforce civilian laws outside of federal jurisdiction areas (proprietary, concurrent, partial and exclusive) due to posse comitatus.

[tacticool]

It's as likely he was a ninja as "Spec-ops" imho.

[Dragonfighter]

It's as likely he was a ninja as "Spec-ops" imho.

I disagree, he was seen AND heard....definitely not ninja.

[Westfield]

It sounds like this guy has serious issues and should be reported to the proper authorties.

[PeteCamp]

Were you sure they were military?

giga04 ... I'm sure they were not Federal Law Enforcement. Two of our church members were, at the time, high ranking USBP (Deputy Chief, Chief of Operations and something else ... ). They were eating breakfast with me when these five guys came in and were invited to sit with us at our table. They were all in civvies and unarmed. My two friends later told me they were helping BP agents, but not exactly how. They are the ones who told me the guys were not Federal agents of any kind, but were specialists on temporary duty. Looking and listening to them, it seemed certain to me they were active duty something. Later I heard about military sensors and other stuff, so maybe that is what they did.

[zigzag]

Have the school cop wait for this poser next time around, Make sure he has backup to apprehend him.