No concealed guns allowed.

[garzona582]

Yesterday I went to a local furniture store and at the front door it had a sign with a picture of a handgun crossed out and it said no concealed handguns allowed. I didn't see a 30.06 sign anywhere on the door. I have read and have been told that if that is not posted then its not enforceable, so I went in with my hangun anyway. Did I do wrong in going in the store? Could I have been arrested if my weapon was spotted (accidently of course)?

I know that this question has probaby been asked a few times. I just want an honest answer that way if it was a mistake in my part I won't do it again.

Thanks

[LarryH]

You did no wrong. That sign has no weight under 30.06 --

However, if someone with apparent authority over the store tells you that they don't want guns in the store, you have been given oral notification. However, you can't (shouldn't) be arrested unless you refuse to leave after that oral notification has been given.

[MoJo]

As long as there wasn't a valid 30.06 sign posted you were OK according to the law. If the store personnel saw your gun and told you to leave and you didn't then you'd be in trouble.

FWTW - - - IANAL

[garzona582]

Thanks guys. I just had to confim by doubts.

[ScottDLS]

As others have said, you did not break the law. However, just to play Devil's Advocate...

Could I have been arrested if my weapon was spotted (accidently of course)?
Thanks

Sure you could be arrested...it's just that the prosecution would be very unlikely to succeed. See Handog..."cuffed and stuffed"


http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic. ... ed+stuffed

[frazzled]

Thanks guys. I just had to confim by doubts.

Having said that, why did you patronize the store? Clearly they did not want your business. I would have obliged them.

[ddstuder]

Thanks guys. I just had to confim by doubts.

Having said that, why did you patronize the store? Clearly they did not want your business. I would have obliged them.

I agree. I have been very selective with whom I spend my money with since getting my plastic. Vote with your Wallet!

[RPB]

I do NOT patronize places with valid 30.06 signs but I have no problem at all patronizng businesses that post gunbusters or no handguns or no firearms or no concealed handguns signs for those who are not licensed.

I ASSUME they already know they posted a "gunbuster" sign, and posted that to make employees and others feel comfortable, and allow CHLs to carry there.

However, concealed is concealed and I'm not intending to ask nor teach them about signs, not my job to stir up trouble nor educate.

If they DID ask me to leave, I wouldn't go back and would warn my freinds about them....

[JNMAR]

I do NOT patronize places with valid 30.06 signs but I have no problem at all patronizng businesses that post gunbusters or no handguns or no firearms or no concealed handguns signs for those who are not licensed.

I ASSUME they already know they posted a "gunbuster" sign, and posted that to make employees and others feel comfortable, and allow CHLs to carry there.

However, concealed is concealed and I'm not intending to ask nor teach them about signs, not my job to stir up trouble nor educate.

If they DID ask me to leave, I wouldn't go back and would warn my freinds about them....

Have you are anyone else here ever had a store owner tell you outright that they know the sign is not legal prohibition but put up the sign only to appease their employees and make others feel safe and it was really okay for you to CC in their store? I hear your view repeated quite often in the various threads here.

I think the large majority of them put the signs up believing they are indeed banning concealed guns and fully intend for them not to be brought into the store. I'm not a betting man but if I were, I'd bet a dollar to a donut that if they had any suspicion that you were in their store with a concealed weapon you'd get to tell your story to one or a few cops...after getting a look down the barrel of their weapons. You may not be successfully prosecuted because of the sign but then again you just might, or at least spend a sizable amount of your hard earned dollars defeating it. At the minimum I think most of the owners would want to pursue charges.

IMO it's a little disingenuous to imply to others who are new and asking the question for the first time that the store owner knows it's not a legal sign and really don't mind if you carry in their store. I know this has been discussed here ad nauseam and I'm not trying keep it going...To me, just dealing with the aftermath would be a big investment of time and perhaps money that I don't want to spare...just to free myself, perhaps teach one LEO something he didn't know and a store owner to change his sign. There's lot's of businesses who don't have signs that one can choose to patronize.

[Oldgringo]

1. You have a valid CHL.

2. The 30.06 sign is either legal or it's not.

3. Concealed is concealed.

The decision is yours whether to enter the premises or not. There is no need for further debate and, IMHO, you certainly do not need to advise the proprietor of your opinion of his sign nor ask what does he/it mean.

If you have any question in your mind as to whether you can legally carry in this particular situation...the answer is NO.

[RPB]

I do NOT patronize places with valid 30.06 signs but I have no problem at all patronizng businesses that post gunbusters or no handguns or no firearms or no concealed handguns signs for those who are not licensed.

I ASSUME they already know they posted a "gunbuster" sign, and posted that to make employees and others feel comfortable, and allow CHLs to carry there.

However, concealed is concealed and I'm not intending to ask nor teach them about signs, not my job to stir up trouble nor educate.

If they DID ask me to leave, I wouldn't go back and would warn my freinds about them....

Have you are anyone else here ever had a store owner tell you outright that they know the sign is not legal prohibition but put up the sign only to appease their employees and make others feel safe and it was really okay for you to CC in their store? I hear your view repeated quite often in the various threads here.

I think the large majority of them put the signs up believing they are indeed banning concealed guns and fully intend for them not to be brought into the store. I'm not a betting man but if I were, I'd bet a dollar to a donut that if they had any suspicion that you were in their store with a concealed weapon you'd get to tell your story to one or a few cops...after getting a look down the barrel of their weapons. You may not be successfully prosecuted because of the sign but then again you just might, or at least spend a sizable amount of your hard earned dollars defeating it. At the minimum I think most of the owners would want to pursue charges.

IMO it's a little disingenuous to imply to others who are new and asking the question for the first time that the store owner knows it's not a legal sign and really don't mind if you carry in their store. I know this has been discussed here ad nauseam and I'm not trying keep it going...To me, just dealing with the aftermath would be a big investment of time and perhaps money that I don't want to spare...just to free myself, perhaps teach one LEO something he didn't know and a store owner to change his sign. There's lot's of businesses who don't have signs that one can choose to patronize.

First
Have you are anyone else here ever had a store owner tell you outright that they know the sign is not legal prohibition but put up the sign only to appease their employees and make others feel safe and it was really okay for you to CC in their store?
Yes I have, several times by several business owners who have a CHL themselves, and by some business owners who do not have a CHL, but are aware that some of their family members, employees and customers do, and others who just don't want to lose business by prohibiting CHLs from spending their money there. It isn't a topic I'd normallly discuss with any business owner, but having owned a few businesses myself before I retired and having known quite a few very well over the years, and living next door to owners of multiple businesses, and being related to some business owners, I have discussed it with many of them.

Nothing to prosecute nor even arrest for, if no oral or written notice given and no 30.06 sign. What section of the Penal code would you write on the report? With no 30.06 sign, you only commit an offense if asked to leave and you refuse or fail to leave.... if you are asked to leave .... do it immediately.

Nothing to defeat, nothing in the penal code was violated, and in the first criminal law class I ever took, I was told, it isn't a crime if there is no law against it" A business owner detaining me could result in a false arrest case which I've worked on before through my supervising attorney and done pretty well ... (Not these particular ones, but one Defendant was a Defendant in one of these) http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... rest_case/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and
http://consumerist.com/2010/03/texas-wo ... wsuit.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can't see it ever coming up to cost ME anything, might cost the business owner a lot though if he tries to detain/arrest me illegally.
1) concealed is concealed
2) no crime committed, nothing for ME to defend against.

No crime is committed unless they ASK/TELL you to leave and you do NOT leave. The store people can not detain nor arrest you. .... If they SEE my gun, I didn't conceal it well, and if they ASK/TELL me to leave, I certainly will, otherwise it would be a criminal offense. (had "notice" by the owner or someone with "apparent authority" to act for the owner, that the entry was forbidden or he received "notice" to depart, but failed to do so. . )

Any person desiring to put up a sign to keep Licensed people out, can EASILY find the proper signage requirements through Google on the DPS site.
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administra ... osting.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administra ... lssign.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can put up this GREEN STOP sign, doesn't mean it's a CRIME if you choose not to obey it. I couldn't tell a policeman to give you a ticket for ignoring it either.


However, concealed is concealed and I'm not intending to ask nor teach them about signs, not my job to stir up trouble nor educate. I will NOT enter any place it is illegal to do so though. I'll shop elsewhere. ... Of course, if the CHL is truly concealing the handgun, it will be rare indeed that the CHL will receive oral notice to leave.... if he is, he should immediately.

[ScottDLS]

I do NOT patronize places with valid 30.06 signs but I have no problem at all patronizng businesses that post gunbusters or no handguns or no firearms or no concealed handguns signs for those who are not licensed.

I ASSUME they already know they posted a "gunbuster" sign, and posted that to make employees and others feel comfortable, and allow CHLs to carry there.

However, concealed is concealed and I'm not intending to ask nor teach them about signs, not my job to stir up trouble nor educate.

If they DID ask me to leave, I wouldn't go back and would warn my freinds about them....

Have you are anyone else here ever had a store owner tell you outright that they know the sign is not legal prohibition but put up the sign only to appease their employees and make others feel safe and it was really okay for you to CC in their store? I hear your view repeated quite often in the various threads here.

I think the large majority of them put the signs up believing they are indeed banning concealed guns and fully intend for them not to be brought into the store. I'm not a betting man but if I were, I'd bet a dollar to a donut that if they had any suspicion that you were in their store with a concealed weapon you'd get to tell your story to one or a few cops...after getting a look down the barrel of their weapons. You may not be successfully prosecuted because of the sign but then again you just might, or at least spend a sizable amount of your hard earned dollars defeating it. At the minimum I think most of the owners would want to pursue charges.

IMO it's a little disingenuous to imply to others who are new and asking the question for the first time that the store owner knows it's not a legal sign and really don't mind if you carry in their store. I know this has been discussed here ad nauseam and I'm not trying keep it going...To me, just dealing with the aftermath would be a big investment of time and perhaps money that I don't want to spare...just to free myself, perhaps teach one LEO something he didn't know and a store owner to change his sign. There's lot's of businesses who don't have signs that one can choose to patronize.

First
Have you are anyone else here ever had a store owner tell you outright that they know the sign is not legal prohibition but put up the sign only to appease their employees and make others feel safe and it was really okay for you to CC in their store?
Yes I have, several times by several business owners who have a CHL themselves, and by some business owners who do not have a CHL, but are aware that some of their family members, employees and customers do, and others who just don't want to lose business by prohibiting CHLs from spending their money there. It isn't a topic I'd normallly discuss with any business owner, but having owned a few businesses myself before I retired and having known quite a few very well over the years, and living next door to owners of multiple businesses, and being related to some business owners, I have discussed it with many of them.

Nothing to prosecute nor even arrest for, if no oral or written notice given and no 30.06 sign. What section of the Penal code would you write on the report? With no 30.06 sign, you only commit an offense if asked to leave and you refuse or fail to leave.... if you are asked to leave .... do it immediately.

Nothing to defeat, nothing in the penal code was violated, and in the first criminal law class I ever took, I was told, it isn't a crime if there is no law against it" A business owner detaining me could result in a false arrest case which I've worked on before through my supervising attorney and done pretty well ... (Not these particular ones, but one Defendant was a Defendant in one of these) http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... rest_case/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and
http://consumerist.com/2010/03/texas-wo ... wsuit.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can't see it ever coming up to cost ME anything, might cost the business owner a lot though if he tries to detain/arrest me illegally.
1) concealed is concealed
2) no crime committed, nothing for ME to defend against.

No crime is committed unless they ASK/TELL you to leave and you do NOT leave. The store people can not detain nor arrest you. .... If they SEE my gun, I didn't conceal it well, and if they ASK/TELL me to leave, I certainly will, otherwise it would be a criminal offense. (had "notice" by the owner or someone with "apparent authority" to act for the owner, that the entry was forbidden or he received "notice" to depart, but failed to do so. . )

Any person desiring to put up a sign to keep Licensed people out, can EASILY find the proper signage requirements through Google on the DPS site.
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administra ... osting.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administra ... lssign.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can put up this GREEN STOP sign, doesn't mean it's a CRIME if you choose not to obey it. I couldn't tell a policeman to give you a ticket for ignoring it either.


However, concealed is concealed and I'm not intending to ask nor teach them about signs, not my job to stir up trouble nor educate. I will NOT enter any place it is illegal to do so though. I'll shop elsewhere. ... Of course, if the CHL is truly concealing the handgun, it will be rare indeed that the CHL will receive oral notice to leave.... if he is, he should immediately.

Well put RPB.

[rdcrags]

I think I read in a thread that certain kinds of businesses are required to have a ghostbuster sign. Fact or myth? maybe garzona582 should know this one way or the other?

TX CHL 1995
CO CHP 2005

[shootthesheet]

I think I read in a thread that certain kinds of businesses are required to have a ghostbuster sign. Fact or myth? maybe garzona582 should know this one way or the other?

TX CHL 1995
CO CHP 2005

If they do it is an internal company policy. I don't personally care what they post as long as it does not restrict my carry. Besides, I couldn't do most things I needed if I refused to enter any business with non-compliant signs.

The way I see it is just like was posted before. If they want to keep CHL holders out they can do what the law REQUIRES them to do to accomplish that. Otherwise, I don't have an issue. I don't allow a bluff to convince me to risk my life with no chance of defense.

[srothstein]

I think I read in a thread that certain kinds of businesses are required to have a ghostbuster sign. Fact or myth? maybe garzona582 should know this one way or the other?

Not a gun buster sign, but an invalid one. Hospitals and nursing homes are still required under the Govenrment Code to post a sign with the same wording as the TABC 51% sign but without the red 51. The sign basically says that it is illegal to carry a firearm on those premises, even if licensed.

But, the law was changed after that law was passed. For you to be charged with any crime, the sign must meet 30.06 specifications. So the law requires these two types of businesses to post a legally invalid sign.

For the fun part of this, I would have to guess that the hospital or nursing home that does not have the required sign posted would be gigged, and maybe even cited, if they were inspected by their licensing authority who got the law put in requiring those signs. Can you see going to the administrative court judge and being fined for not posting a legally meaningless sign? That would really make for a bad day.