Special Session???

[driver8]

Marksiwel, am I understanding that you believe that Socialism and private gun ownership are somehow compatible? As for old people collecting social security, I have doubts that I will ever collect SS much less ever come close to collecting anywhere near what I've put in. If I had the money that's been extracted from my paycheck for 35 yrs. to invest my way, I would be set right now.

[marksiwel]

When I did get a concussion I was charged 30 bucks for asprin, and 200 dollars for an IV (Its Salt and Water!)

Well, then why didn't you just go to WalMart and get some Bayer and Morton's.

Oh yeah, because you were actually paying for someone who knew how to use those properly.

Or I was unconscious and couldn't refuse medical help.
Under Supplies it said
Asprin $30
IV $200
Guaze $10

ER Charge $$$
Doctor Charge $$$

So I would say that the Doctor Charge and the ER Charge were "for the someone who knew how to use those properly" the CHarege for supplies was just straight up Highway Robbery.

[marksiwel]

Marksiwel, am I understanding that you believe that Socialism and private gun ownership are somehow compatible? As for old people collecting social security, I have doubts that I will ever collect SS much less ever come close to collecting anywhere near what I've put in. If I had the money that's been extracted from my paycheck for 35 yrs. to invest my way, I would be set right now.

Switzerland, Guns in every house, and they require insurance for everyone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Switzerland" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Yes its a Wiki article, deal with it.

Or http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=92106731" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So yeah, so far so good. I'll say this again please post a story where they used Healthcare to restrict gun rights. No one has posted anything yet, if its out there lets discuss this.

Honestly in 10 years I think we will look back at this and see that some of us Over Reacted.

Also it's not Impossible if this doesnt work out to get Rid of it.

[Teamless]

Also it's not Impossible if this doesnt work out to get Rid of it.

No offense, but what social program (government dole) has ever been discontinued after it went into effect?
That is political suicide for anyone who votes to repeal it, as those who are on the dole will never vote for them again.

[driver8]

This is not Switzerland. The Obamas , Pelosis, Reids, etc make no secret about their anti-gun views or their intentions. From what I've heard recently about Switzerland their gun rights are far from ideal.

[marksiwel]

This is not Switzerland. The Obamas , Pelosis, Reids, etc make no secret about their anti-gun views or their intentions. From what I've heard recently about Switzerland their gun rights are far from ideal.

This not Switzerland, this is America, why not borrow what works from and leave what doesnt, and make a system that will be the envy of the rest of the world?

[driver8]

Do you think Switzerland has the same factors dragging down their healthcare system that the U.S. does? Do you think they have the same ratio of tax payers to tax moochers we do? What is their population, about 800?

[marksiwel]

Do you think Switzerland has the same factors dragging down their healthcare system that the U.S. does? Do you think they have the same ratio of tax payers to tax moochers we do? What is their population, about 800?

care to post the Tax Payers to Moochers Ratio in America?

[5thGenTexan]

Mark

Step one: http://westernrifleshooters.blogspot.co ... d-gun.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

if they can penalize me for owning a gun by giving non gunowners a discount that I am not entitled to, the chipping begins. Where does it end? No one knows until it does but I don't intend to sit by wait for the next iteration of BHO/P-lousy to come along and expand it. The only thing I am sure of is if this mess is allowed to ferment in it's still we will never be able to repeal it in time to financially or politically survive it.

Once the masses start drinking this swill they will continue to demand it as a right. No federal "welfare" program ever stands a chance of repeal because it is as addictive as opium.

[driver8]

Do you seriously believe that the U.S. does not have a much higher percentage of non-producers that Switzerland? Besides that how can you compare anything between a country with 8 million people with one with 300 million?

[bdickens]

I thinkI just busted a gut laughing.

Yes, you also spend YOUR money on paving the roads to make sure I get to work, you spend YOUR money making sure their are police to Protect ME, and you spend YOUR money making sure their are F-35s patrolling the skies against Communist.
Or we could have taken the money we wasted on New Fighter Jets, and spent it on Healthcare and broke about even.

I guess I'm just a dirty "Socialist" (Anyone care to tell me "WHY" thats a bad word?) that I think the main reason we have a government is to HELP PEOPLE. We have Health Care for a Coast Guard cooks and his 18 kids, but you talk about helping the rest of everyone with the same Tax money that we are paying him, and people lose their minds.

How many of you old guys are on Medicare or getting Social Security? Tell me how thats different.
hey, making sure their arent sick people helps everyone.

Ask yourself, is your Insurance really working for you? Mine sucks, and I'm doing better insurance wise compared to jobs that pay Twice what I do.

Also I never broke my arm, its a from a story I heard on NPR (Socialist Radio!) about a Woman who broke her Arm in America , she was from Europe, the bill to have her arm set whats in the Tens of Thousands of Dollars.
When I did get a concussion I was charged 30 bucks for asprin, and 200 dollars for an IV (Its Salt and Water!)

Well, you are absolutely 100% WRONG on all counts.

First off, the Federal expenditures for roads and fighter jets are authorized by the US Constitution (God rest her soul). Federal expenditures for local police are Unconstitutional anyway.

The health care for the Coast Guard cook and his 18 kids is part of his total compensation package and not a government handout.

The purpose of our government is not to "help people," it is to protect them.

If your insurance sucks, so sad, too bad. Buy better insurance. I shouldn't have to pay for it. That's what the free market is for: so you can buy what fits your needs. But now Chairman Maobama and our betters in the Politburo are going to take away that option.

[marksiwel]

Well, you are absolutely 100% WRONG on all counts.

First off, the Federal expenditures for roads and fighter jets are authorized by the US Constitution (God rest her soul). Federal expenditures for local police are Unconstitutional anyway.

The health care for the Coast Guard cook and his 18 kids is part of his total compensation package and not a government handout.

The purpose of our government is not to "help people," it is to protect them.

If your insurance sucks, so sad, too bad. Buy better insurance. I shouldn't have to pay for it. That's what the free market is for: so you can buy what fits your needs. But now Chairman Maobama and our betters in the Politburo are going to take away that option.

I see that having a discussion with you is a waste of time.

[LarryH]

I mean, Americans own more guns than all the world's armies combined (200 million guns). We bought more guns in 2009 than the combined total arms inventory of the world's 20 biggest armies. Do we really need to be taxed for a defense budget?!

When the republic was established, no country had better weapons than another, and no country had more destructive weapons than your average citizen.

If we had not had a strong defense establishment over the last sixty years or so, you'd be speaking Russian today, tovarisch.

[Kythas]

When I did get a concussion I was charged 30 bucks for asprin, and 200 dollars for an IV (Its Salt and Water!)

Well, then why didn't you just go to WalMart and get some Bayer and Morton's.

Oh yeah, because you were actually paying for someone who knew how to use those properly.

Or I was unconscious and couldn't refuse medical help.
Under Supplies it said
Asprin $30
IV $200
Guaze $10

ER Charge $$$
Doctor Charge $$$

So I would say that the Doctor Charge and the ER Charge were "for the someone who knew how to use those properly" the CHarege for supplies was just straight up Highway Robbery.

Mark, you do have a valid point here. The reason you're charged so much for those items are because the hospital has to make up for the losses it incurs in treating medicare/medicaid patients and the indigent. You see, the government pays so little for medicare/medicaid that the hospital ends up losing money when treating people on them. That's why many doctors are no longer accepting medicare/medicaid patients. That's why Walgreen's in the state of Illinois announced last week that it will no longer accept any new medicare/medicaid patients in its pharmacies.

This bill will now extend the medicare/medicaid reimbursement policies for everyone. This means hospitals and doctors will lose even more money. You're going to see lots of medical professionals quit because it will no longer be profitable for them to practice medicine (I know this because I have family who are doctors and they said they would have to consider quitting the profession and they know many other doctors saying the same thing). This will cut the pool of doctors while putting more people into the system. Wait times for care will increase, the amount of time a doctor actually sees you will decrease since his profit will be all about quantity now, and doctors and hospitals will have to start charging insurance companies even more to make up for what they lose treating patients with the government program. But, since insurance companies will no longer be allowed to raise premiums without government permission, many insurance companies will go out of business, putting more people in the government system. Soon, the government will be the only game in town, which was the whole purpose of this bill.

I can't believe you actually think government can provide a service better than private industry. Name me one - JUST ONE - government program that makes a profit.

[jimlongley]

Two problems:

"True" Democracy and "true" socialism both are theoretical in nature and are unlikely to ever be achieved on any large scale, there are just too many places where even a little deviation from the ideal will lead to the eventual collapse of the "system." Consider the "Prisoner's Dilemma" where:

Two suspects are arrested by the police. The police have insufficient evidence for a conviction, and, having separated both prisoners, visit each of them to offer the same deal. If one testifies (defects from the other) for the prosecution against the other and the other remains silent (cooperates with the other), the betrayer goes free and the silent accomplice receives the full 10-year sentence. If both remain silent, both prisoners are sentenced to only six months in jail for a minor charge. If each betrays the other, each receives a five-year sentence. Each prisoner must choose to betray the other or to remain silent. Each one is assured that the other would not know about the betrayal before the end of the investigation. How should the prisoners act?

In the ideal circumstance, either in the Democracy or the Socialist, EACH would remain silent and would obtain the most benefit for BOTH, but it doesn't work that way. In test after test, even in communist and socialist countries where everyone is thoroughly indoctrinated from earliest childhood, very few actually go for the ideal, opting, instead, to do what they see as best for them, and eventually someone gains an advantage, which is an anethema to both democracy and socialism (put very simplistically). The bigger the game, the more chance there is that one player will consistently try to gain a personal advantage, so at national levels, with millions upon millions of players, there will always be someone whose attitude is "Hooray for me, I'll get mine, you get your own." and essentailly, in the long run anyway, destroys the system.

And that leads to the other problem (all of the above was just one of two?)

WE keep calling it a "System" and it could hardly be described as such even in the longest stretch of the imagination. "The Healthcare System" is what is getting "fixed" by the horrible legislation, and there is none, the legislation is essentially fixing something that does not exist, which means it will have to create it, and then fix it. It isn't and never was 'A' system, a single entity, it was always a bunch of interrelated systems.

A few years ago my wife had some very bad chest pains, and we took her to a local ER. This ER was a predecessor to today's "Doc in a Box" operations, although there was no way to make that distinction at the time. She was IVed, ECGed, poked, prodded, and you name it. And then the ER recommended she be hospitalised for observation, and we packed her into an ambulance, IVs, pills, and everything else and had her transpoted to the cardiac unit of a nearby hospital.

Long story short, it was probably a bowel problem.

But the hospital charged us for the IVs that traveled with her from the ER, and a variety of other stuff that the ER applied, and denied that they didn't apply that stuff because "She was NOT admitted through the ER."

Of course my insurance paid for it, so I really didn't see any cost to me, but I had a real problem with the hospital being paid for stuff that the ER did, even if the ER was not associated with the hospital, and with the insurance paying twice for stuff that we got once, driving my insurance costs up. So I protested. The insurance sided with the hospital even though there was absolutely no record of the IVs that had been applied at the ER and transported with my wife in the ambulance ever being removed, just the hospital record that they placed the IVs, which was a bald faced lie.

Without getting into all the other stuff, eventually I was called into my company's HR department and told to lay off the insurance folks or risk losing my job. Even the HR person sided with the hospital and insurance, said I was being unreasonable and that it was no big deal.

That is not ONE system, it is several, with no real interface, and no amount of Obamacare is going to change it, I see such abuses as getting easier.

I gotta go before my BP peaks again.

It is NOT a system, but it will be.