Census

[03Lightningrocks]

CHL information is confidential unless law enforcement requests access to it for a specific purpose. Even then, it is simply a list of personal characteristics, (sex, age, etc.), and your employment, residence, and arrest history. Most of this is already in the public domain.

The fact that you have a CHL says nothing about what kind of or how many firearms you own, if any.

Similarly, your federal income-tax information is confidential unless subpoenaed. The IRS doesn't just open it to other agencies for fishing expeditions.

The Form 4473 that you fill out when you purchase a firearm from an FFL stays in the FFL's files for 20 years unless he goes out of business. Then it goes to BATFE in paper form.

The information from NICS checks is supposed to be deleted after 36 hours. When John Ashcroft became Attorney General in 2001, he found that the FBI was keeping it longer. He ordered them to comply with the law. Presumably they were still doing so at least until January 2009.

I'm inclined to think that they are still complying, because certain members of the Administration and Congress want the law changed to allow the FBI to keep the information longer.

As for the census, individual identifying information is secret for 72 years. It cannot even be subpoenaed.

I would like to know if anyone can point out an example of abuse of census information in the past, oh, 220 years.

- Jim

One exception though...that piece of paper I fill out to purchase a firearm does not go away.

As for the census, individual identifying information is secret for 72 years. It cannot even be subpoenaed. I would like to know if anyone can point out an example of abuse of census information in the past, oh, 220 years.

A point that I believe is missed in all this noise.

[yerasimos]

Aside from the intrusion of privacy and extra-constitutionality of the Census as it is currently conducted, I think there may be some psychological benefit or satisfaction associated with closing the door in the face of indignant Census workers and otherwise deliberately and non-violently resisting/non-complying with what our "betters" would have us do. This is much less costly than all that watering trees with blood from tyrants stuff, and gives people a chance to reconsider their actions and perhaps pursue more productive endeavors in the private, consensual economy.

Furthermore, widespread non-compliance should help tell those in the District of Corruption that they need to kick it down several notches and treat citizens with much more respect than they do now.

[03Lightningrocks]

I think there may be some psychological benefit or satisfaction associated with closing the door in the face of indignant Census workers and otherwise deliberately and non-violently resisting/non-complying with what our "betters" would have us do. This is much less costly than all that watering trees with blood from tyrants stuff, and gives people a chance to reconsider their actions and perhaps pursue more productive endeavors in the private, consensual economy.

This could be said for just about all folks employed by the government. I don't think census workers are doing anything more than simply trying to earn a dollar like everyone else. This is a temporary position and the good folks taking these jobs are choosing to work rather then sitting on their butts waiting for gubbermint cheese. I don't think political affiliation is a requirement for the job. Treating them with rudeness would be the equivalent of treating highway workers rudely because you didn't agree with the stimulus bill.

[yerasimos]

While their work is dubiously financed, the highway workers are not deliberately disturbing citizens in their own homes and private property. The Census workers are/will be.

I can avoid the spectacle of "shovel ready" stimulated road building, a police officer who is tasked with writing traffic citations, and minimize similar low-grade intrusions and risks to my life, liberty and property by staying home, obeying traffic laws or walking to where I need to go. However, avoiding a pushy Census worker instructed to ambush me near my door if I do not return intrusive forms is more difficult. Furthermore, how do I differentiate a legitimate Census worker, who deserves a "talk to the hand", from a criminal pretending to be a Census worker in an attempt to close the distance and ply his criminal trade?

I realize that a few people here on this board, as well as one of my own relatives whom I love, have worked for the Census, and I sympathize with just wanting to get paid for a job, but not all work is created equal. Compensation for work varies not only in quantity of compensation, but how that compensation is derived, whether through genuine cooperation and voluntarism on one hand, or threats, fraud or force on the other. Ceteris paribus, I view work knowingly financed by the latter methods more dimly than work financed otherwise, and I believe most of those engaged in work financed by the latter methods understand the distinction as well, even if they are unwilling or unable to articulate it.

[Big Tuna]

I guess I am just wondering how filling out a census survey is going to compromise our privacy any more than the other umpteen things we all do every day.

If they already have the information, they don't need anybody to answer the questions.

Like some others already said, I don't mind the 10 questions on the form, but I don't see any reason to have a conversation with them.

[seamusTX]

Furthermore, how do I differentiate a legitimate Census worker, who deserves a "talk to the hand", from a criminal pretending to be a Census worker in an attempt to close the distance and ply his criminal trade?

From http://2010.census.gov/2010census/priva ... topics.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;:

Identifying the Census Taker

* All census takers carry official government badges marked with just their name
* You may also ask them for a picture ID from another source to confirm their identity
* Some census workers might carry a "U.S. Census Bureau" bag

If you still are not certain about their identity, please call the Regional Census Center toll-free number to confirm they're employed by the Census Bureau.

Most importantly, the Census Bureau will NEVER, under any circumstances, ask to enter your home.

You might as well ask the same question about meter readers or anyone who goes door-to-door.

- Jim

[stevie_d_64]

Not that I want to fire a whole debate about privacy and what not, but if you have a CHL, you gave the State everything but your under garment size. I have noticed that many of the same questions on the census report also show up on credit apps. If we file a tax return, the government knows how many kids we have and their ages. If you ever purchase anything by credit or debit card, your purchase goes into a marketing data base and somebody out there knows how many TV's you have. We buy firearms and fill out registration paperwork. They know what guns you have already.

I guess I am just wondering how filling out a census survey is going to compromise our privacy any more than the other umpteen things we all do every day.

Good, no need to fill out census.

Well, maybe my interpretation can somehow spur some additional thought...

I believe the modern census is being used directly to justify the governments un-Constitutional determination to levy additional taxes and distribute monies in some way to justify their existance and further errode the original intent and restrictions on the Federal government...

Spending away our future generations income is a bet that is to much to hedge on our countries economic future...They know this and yet there is no care for the future, so I say it is time to fire them all, reset the system, honor our debts, and not dig the hole any deeper...

Personally, I believe it is too late...

[Mike1951]

It also states that they will contact you by phone which is strange since they aren't supposed to have names just addresses, so how they get a phone number is beyond me.

You can look up phone numbers based on addresses on the internets to a limited extent.

It's also possible that the phone company gives them the phone number at an address. That kind of thing is not explicitly secret.

I don't know how various commercial entities do it; but if you move, as a friend of mine did recently, you immediately get junk mail and phone calls from all sorts of business and also churches. Someone is selling the information.

- Jim

If you have VOIP, would the phone company even have the number? I haven't dealt with the phone company for almost ten years. Google doesn't show a phone when I search by address.

I actually don't object to the census. This will be my 4th. In 1980, I was contacted several times during the next ten years to follow up. I would get a call and would meet the worker at a place other than my home. No one has ever come to my home. But if they are too dumb to find me and send a form, I'm not going to call their number and request one. If they attempt to visit, they will find an always locked gate and no way to summon me.

Here's the deal. I've lived at the same address for 58+ years and completed three previous censuses. Yet I have not received the advance notice. If they get a form to me, I'll complete it. But if they can't find me, being in the same spot for 58 years, I will make no effort to do their job for them.

[kidder014]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsDhkPym ... ture=email

[A-R]

I'm very confused by all of this. On the one hand you have the 10-question form, link provided by Jim, that seems very benign and I would have no problem filling this out and returning it.

The head of household gets a form in the mail. It can be a long or short form. The short form asks basic information like who lives in the home, their age, sex, and race. The long form asks all kinds of stuff like educational attainment, how big the house is, etc., -- it changes every year.

Sometimes they follow up with an in-person visit. In 2000, I filled out the form and sent it back, but I still got an in-person visit.

Here's the official FAQ: https://ask.census2010.gov/cgi-bin/askc ... td_alp.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's the short form: http://2010.census.gov/2010census/how/i ... e-form.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

- Jim

But then you get stuff like below ....

I also would refuse to answer questions such as "when do you leave for work each day" etc.

Are there still two different forms - short form and long form? Or is this new 10-question form the only census form being sent out?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsDhkPym ... ture=email

They will send the forms to your home address. If you are lucky, you will get the short form. If you are like me, you will get the multiple page form that asks such questions as your income, when you leave for work, how long of a commute you have, how many hours per day you work, and want the same info for everyone living in your home. To me, this is just pre-casing your home for anyone to come clean you out after their census duties are done and they are back to the unemployment line.

For years, I have only answered the basic how many people live in our home, their ages, etc - the basic questions allowed per the U.S. Constitution. Our household received the long form for both the 1990 and 2000 census years. When you don't answer all their questions, they send someone to your house to find out the answers to those left blank. If you have a peephole and only open the door to those you know, then they can't talk to you. Same thing about them calling....caller ID is a wonderful invention.

This year, we have the SEIU and their ilk helping out with counting the citizenry. They have also GPS marked the front door of every residence they could find. My co-worker's husband is retired and he thought working the census this time around would be a nice diversion and get him out of the house. He quit after the second day in the field. He did not feel comfortable invading the privacy of his fellow Americans the way the Census Bureau was directing him. I have also heard there are also new penalties for not answering all the questions. Something like $5,000. Not sure who is going to enforce this fine. Maybe the IRS is chipping in and that is why they placed their new firearms order??

I hate sounding like a conspiracy theorist........

[seamusTX]

The information that I provided in my first reply was incorrect. It was based on my experience with the 1990 and 2000 censuses. Who'sJohnGalt provided the current information.

Every household is supposed to receive the short form.

The long form is called the American Community Survey (ACS). It is sent out to a small set of households more frequently than the official census. You could get both this year, or you could get the short form this year and the ACS several years from now -- or never.

- Jim

[A-R]

The information that I provided in my first reply was incorrect. It was based on my experience with the 1990 and 2000 censuses. Who'sJohnGalt provided the current information.

Every household is supposed to receive the short form.

The long form is called the American Community Survey (ACS). It is sent out to a small set of households more frequently than the official census. You could get both this year, or you could get the short form this year and the ACS several years from now -- or never.

- Jim

So is there a law or US code requiring us to fill out the ACS? And does it ask probing personal questions such as "when do you leave for work each day?"

[pbwalker]

I'm very confused by all of this. On the one hand you have the 10-question form, link provided by Jim, that seems very benign and I would have no problem filling this out and returning it.

But why 10 questions? Why not the ONLY one they need? How many people live is your home? That's ALL they need. Why do they need to know if I own, rent, or own with a mortgage? Why do they need my phone number? Why does my race matter?

Folks will willingly fill this out, but cry "Foul" when someone wants to draw up a Bill of Sale on a firearm?

<sarcasm> Oh, it's ok...the Government knows what's best for you! </sarcasm>

Like I mentioned earlier, I am only filling out question 1 because it's all they need to know. If the goons want to harass me in to answering the others, I will politely ask them to fill *this* out first. http://nonais.org/techdocs/PublicServan ... nnaire.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - I won't hold my breath waiting for them to fill it out.

[A-R]

I'm very confused by all of this. On the one hand you have the 10-question form, link provided by Jim, that seems very benign and I would have no problem filling this out and returning it.

But why 10 questions? Why not the ONLY one they need? How many people live is your home? That's ALL they need. Why do they need to know if I own, rent, or own with a mortgage? Why do they need my phone number? Why does my race matter?

Folks will willingly fill this out, but cry "Foul" when someone wants to draw up a Bill of Sale on a firearm?

<sarcasm> Oh, it's ok...the Government knows what's best for you! </sarcasm>

Like I mentioned earlier, I am only filling out question 1 because it's all they need to know. If the goons want to harass me in to answering the others, I will politely ask them to fill *this* out first. http://nonais.org/techdocs/PublicServan ... nnaire.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - I won't hold my breath waiting for them to fill it out.

As I stated, I feel the 10 question form is benign and most of the info is readily available from public records anyway. So it's not worth wasting my time with some form of protest by only filling out question #1.

However, if the questions are of a more personal/private nature I certainly will protest and refuse to answer. I do like the form on your link

As for Bill of Sale for private firearms transactions, I use them myself and have no problem signing one if I'm buying from a private party.

And, of course, if the census taker demands to know how many firearms I own, I will send him on his way.

[bayouhazard]

Remember the census is used to determine congressional districts, federal spending and other things that affect us. You can bet acorn and other nuts will be manipulating the system for their benefit. Imagine more seats in congress for CA MA NJ etc. Or they split SJL's district in Houston because of "growth" and that demo elects a SJL clone.

Can America afford that?