Repo men

[A-R]

Noticed this story this morning: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... c=fb&cc=fp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And it got me to thinking of all the dangerous possibilities these repo men provoke with their actions. I am NOT defending those who don't pay their debts, and believe strongly that lenders have the legal right to reclaim property not paid for under terms of a loan. But, unlike real property which can be repossessed in a more "civilized" way utilizing the courts and law enforcement via eviction (rentals) or foreclosure (mortgages), personal property like cars and such is left to this shady world of repo men.

So how does all of this apply in Texas, with the Castle Doctrine etc.?

If I catch someone in my driveway (my real property) taking my car (my personal property) at night, knowing full well I am behind on payments, what happens if I shoot them?

If I catch someone inside my garage trying to reclaim my car or boat, or inside my home trying to reclaim a television etc., what happens if I shoot them?

If I catch someone in a public parking lot (Wal Mart for example), attempting to take my car (which I know I am behind on making payments) what happens if I shoot them? What if my child or my dog or other personal property which I own outright (my guns) are in this car when it is repossessed? What if I shoot the repo man under these conditions?

I'm of the belief that I won't likely shoot just to prevent theft of my personal property, but I might pull a gun to try to stop the theft - which can very quickly lead to my life being placed in immediate danger (the person taking my car tries to run me over when they see me pointing a gun at them ...) and to me defending my life with lethal force (shooting).

But, no matter what the circumstances, if someone is inside my home without my permission and has not LOUDLY announced that they are law enforcement serving a legal warrant I will shoot and I will continue to shoot until the person or persons is no longer an imminent threat to me and my family.

Anyway, opening the floor for discussion (would love to hear from someone who is or has been a repo man at some point) ....

[ifanyonecan]

Operation Repo is staged? I really like that show...

But yeah, you have a right to defend with lethal force if you have reasonable belief that he/she is a thief. I'd say taking someone's car at night without knocking at their door would be pretty sketchy, and I'd have no remorse for killing someone with that little common sense. The gene pool could use cleaning.

[AEA]

It's not "your" car until you complete the terms of the loan. You can call it "your" car, but you do not own it.

Same thing as your house. Really tickles me to watch HGTV and see new home buyers after closing say something like "I am now a home owner". In reality the Bank is the new home owner until it is paid off.

I was actually a REPO man for a period of time (not in the USA) and I can tell you there is nothing "shady" about it. The things you see on the TV series are for excitement and not the norm. The only thing "shady" about it is having to track down the location of the car when the "owner" is hiding it. Once the car is located, it is taken either by reasonable discussion or with assistance from the local police as necessary.

[The Annoyed Man]

If I catch someone in my driveway (my real property) taking my car (my personal property) at night, knowing full well I am behind on payments, what happens if I shoot them?

I don't know what the law would say, but here is what I would say...

When you borrow to buy a car, you have a contract with the lender. If you fail to maintain your part of the contract by failing to make the payments, then you are no longer the owner of the vehicle. The bank is. And you can't shoot somebody for coming on your property, like a driveway, to reclaim their property — of which you are illegally in possession.

[ifanyonecan]

I figured the actual business isn't as shady as TV would want me to believe. It makes for good entertainment, though.

It's not "your" car until you complete the terms of the loan.

That's a good point; I hadn't thought of that. I doubt there are very many people that would be unaware if they haven't been paying for their car, in which case, they aren't justified. They should realize what's happening when someone is taking their things.

[davidtx]

My brother had one show up at his house very late at night (around 10PM) just a few weeks ago. He lives in a very rural area. An ex-member of his wife's band had used their address on a loan for a motorcycle. It apparently got pretty intense there for a while and he had a Colt 45 behind his back during the conversation.

[suthdj]

Ok, another what if, what if a burglar busts through your front door loudly announcing themselves as police. and you do not engage but instead drop your weapon and raise your hands while the BG proceeds to put a round in you or you engage and it really is the police.

[AEA]

Here's a little bit more info that may not generally be known......

When your car is repo'ed it is taken to a storage facility (impound yard) that is usually a garage or dealer or whatever (secure area contracted by the Lender).

You have a period of time to catch up your missed payments and pay storage fees/towing fees (if it was towed) and any other lender fees associated with the Repo (repo fees) and you can have the car back. This period of time may vary from State to State but where I worked it was 45 days. After 45 days, if you had not settled with the lender and received the car back, it goes on the auction block and is sold to the highest bidder. Then the lender will often bill you for the difference in what you owed and the amount received at auction. Sometimes they drop this, sometimes they don't. Depends on the lender. They can tie you up in Court and eventually get a judgment against you for the balance.

I can almost guarantee you that if you shoot and kill a repo man during his legal repossession of the vehicle, you will be charged with murder and face the ramifications.

You might want to also consider that if you pull a gun on a repo man (without the intent to shoot) that he too might be armed and you may get shot yourself. In this case the repo man would be cleared of any wrong doing as he was acting in the legal performance of his duty and shot you because he was in fear of his life.

Big things to think about for sure.........
Where I was a Repo man, there were very few guns of any kind and no CC (Canada). So, I really didn't have to deal with these issues.

I simply located the car and if it was at the "owner's" residence I would knock on the door and talk to them and give them the opportunity to take any personal possessions out of the car, give me the keys and I drive away. If they did not agree to that, I would tell them that I would call a tow truck and they would pay for that too and all of their neighbors would know what was going on. If it escalated any further, I would call the police who would respond to assist.

If they don't answer the door, call the tow truck. If they come out, try to talk to them and if they are non compliant, call the police.

If they are hiding the car someplace, use investigative techniques to locate the car. Sometimes it would be taken from a parking lot by simply calling a tow truck.

Hope this helps and you can see that escalating the situation is not the best thing to do for either party.

[AEA]

Ok, another what if, what if a burglar busts through your front door loudly announcing themselves as police. and you do not engage but instead drop your weapon and raise your hands while the BG proceeds to put a round in you or you engage and it really is the police.

I think this question should be asked in a separate thread. Also, a search will result in many previous discussions on this topic.

[AEA]

A little more........

Where it really gets sad is when you have to repo a car from a person who is actually making the payments on time and thinks everything is OK..........

How is this possible? Third party........

I had to repo a car from a young woman who was paying on time and had no idea why I was there.

She had bought the car from a used car dealer who had not checked liens before selling it. Her bank had also not checked liens before giving her the loan. The original lender issued a repo order and even gave the lady's name and address (current registration).

When I talked to her and explained the situation to her, she broke down in tears and was really shook up about it. I was not required to make any calls or wait for calls to be made, but in this case I told her to call her lender and tell them what is happening while I wait. She did and I spoke to her lender and explained the problem and they talked to her again and told her to give me the car and they would straighten it out. I took the car and went on my way.

In the end, her lender sued the dealer who sold the car to her as local laws required the used car dealer to run a lien check on all cars before being sold. The lady's bank won and the used car dealer paid off the loan and then went after the guy that sold the car to them. I never heard what happened after that.

[chabouk]

I've only had one encounter with a repo man, and that was over a mixup with the lender (we were fully paid up, but one department wasn't talking to the other department).

We had a knock at our door early (gray daylight) on a Saturday morning, and a man was there with a tow truck saying he had an order to take our travel trailer. He showed me the paperwork, and I told him it was in error, because I was completely up to date on payments (and had been for at least a couple of weeks). We stood around yakking in the driveway while I tried to get the finance company on the phone (they're in California, and weren't open yet). Our daughter went out to the trailer and came back with an armload of stuff, and my wife asked her what she was doing. She said she was getting our stuff out; my wife told her she didn't have to do that, because they weren't taking the trailer anywhere. A minute or so later I gave up on getting anyone to answer the phone in California, and the driver said, "Well, that's okay, you've already said we can't take it, so we can't touch it anyway."

And from what I understand, that is a pretty general rule: if they find it on the street and can hook up to it, it's finders keepers. But if you tell them no, they can't use any kind of force to take it unless there's an actual court order, not just repo paperwork from the lender.

Oh, and we did get it all straightened out with the lender, but I did have to argue with them over who had to pay the tow company for the wasted trip. They eventually dropped it.

[AEA]

I am not up to date on USA laws for repo's but I can tell you this about Canada........

I can take the property from wherever it is. The "owner's" property, his brother's property, his friend's property or anywhere I find the item/car. The Repo paperwork is in fact a legal warrant to seize the item.

Even if it is hidden in a garage, as long as I have reasonable suspicion that the item is in the garage, I had the legal authority to break into the garage and take it. I only once had to do this and it wouldn't have happened unless I was certain the item was in the garage. It so happened there was a window in the garage that I could see the Snowmobile in the garage and just as we were about to break into it, the "owner" came out of the house and unlocked the garage for us.

[The Annoyed Man]

In the end, her lender sued the dealer who sold the car to her as local laws required the used car dealer to run a lien check on all cars before being sold. The lady's bank won and the used car dealer paid off the loan and then went after the guy that sold the car to them. I never heard what happened after that.

Did she get the car back?

[AEA]

YES and no additional charges. She was not in any fault.

[A-R]

Wow, great responses and truly fascinating discussion. AEA, I greatly appreciate your intimate knowledge of this business and it sounds like you "did it the right way" when you were involved.

So many responses so quickly, I'm going to try to post all my comments, responses, and follow up questions in this one reply, so bear with me. In a nutshell, I have a problem with anyone intruding/trespassing onto my legally possessed REAL PROPERTY for any purpose without out both LEGAL PERMISSION AND ANNOUNCEMENT OF INTENT (not sure how often repo work is done without both, but I've heard of such situations as we all have):

It's not "your" car until you complete the terms of the loan. You can call it "your" car, but you do not own it.

Same thing as your house. Really tickles me to watch HGTV and see new home buyers after closing say something like "I am now a home owner". In reality the Bank is the new home owner until it is paid off.

I am not a lawyer, of course, but I believe you're incorrect regarding personal property (car) and I know you're incorrect regarding real property (your house). That property is in fact YOURS, and can only be "reclaimed" from you if you don't fulfill your end of the legal contract (the loan). In terms of a home, the home is yours to do with as you please and no one may take it from you without due process of law. I think - but do not know - that the same applies to personal property. The "due process of law" being paramount in all cases.

If these properties truly were not yours, then the banks could just take them at any time for any reason and you couldn't even file a police report to report them stolen if some hoodlum took them because they're not really yours to begin with, right?

All of the above is of course contingent upon any clauses you may have agreed to in any legal contract/loan.

I don't know what the law would say, but here is what I would say...

When you borrow to buy a car, you have a contract with the lender. If you fail to maintain your part of the contract by failing to make the payments, then you are no longer the owner of the vehicle. The bank is. And you can't shoot somebody for coming on your property, like a driveway, to reclaim their property — of which you are illegally in possession.

TAM, I disagree with you in terms of legality (which you didn't claim in first place, so won't waste time with it) but also in non-legal terms or "common sense" or whatever. If you step one foot onto my real property without my permission and without a recognized alternative permission (court order, warrant etc), then you are gravely violating my rights and, depending on the aggressiveness of your trespass, threatening my property and possibly my life. I will respond with an aggressive defense of my property and my life, to the degree which I believe it is necessary stop your instrusion (note this may be as simple benign as me shouting "get of my property" - doesn't have to involve force or deadly force). If you enter my property without legitimate "permissions", you are a threat and will be treated as such. Whether or not I legally or illegally am in possession of your personal property when you do so is incidental.

In these circumstances, mediators of some sort (usually law enforcement) need to be used to keep the peace in such disputes ... sort of the whole point of my OP.

I can almost guarantee you that if you shoot and kill a repo man during his legal repossession of the vehicle, you will be charged with murder and face the ramifications.

I would agree with this statement with the hugely important CAVEAT that the phrase "legal repossession" is fully explained and it does not conflict with the legal rights nor the unwritten inherent human rights of the person from whom the property is being repossesesd. I have no idea what is "legal" or "illegal" in terms of respossession, but regardless, if someone simply shows up unannounced on my real property and attempts to take my personal property without informing me immediately prior to doing so (meaning a knock on the door right then, not some note tacked on a door earlier or letter in the mail saying "we're gonna take back our car next week"), then I have every right (IANAL) to aggressively repel this person from my real property. I have this right because I DON'T KNOW the true intentions of this person who is trespassing on my property and attempting to take with force property in my possession.

This is why when real property is respossessed, it is done so in an orderly fashion with a court order and law enforcement personnel present.

You might want to also consider that if you pull a gun on a repo man (without the intent to shoot) that he too might be armed and you may get shot yourself. In this case the repo man would be cleared of any wrong doing as he was acting in the legal performance of his duty and shot you because he was in fear of his life.

Any repo man who shoots another person on that person's real property is not going to be so easily cleared of any wrong doing (all of the above caveats of a "legal" and "announced" reposession notwithstanding).

Hope this helps and you can see that escalating the situation is not the best thing to do for either party.

Again, all depends who is doing the escalating? Anyone walks onto my real property unannounced and without legitimate "permission" and begins to use force to remove anything is going to be met with strong resistance until such time as the intruder's intentions and legitimate "permission" are made abundantly clear.

I am not up to date on USA laws for repo's but I can tell you this about Canada........

I can take the property from wherever it is. The "owner's" property, his brother's property, his friend's property or anywhere I find the item/car. The Repo paperwork is in fact a legal warrant to seize the item.

Even if it is hidden in a garage, as long as I have reasonable suspicion that the item is in the garage, I had the legal authority to break into the garage and take it. I only once had to do this and it wouldn't have happened unless I was certain the item was in the garage. It so happened there was a window in the garage that I could see the Snowmobile in the garage and just as we were about to break into it, the "owner" came out of the house and unlocked the garage for us.

If the above is legal in the US and especially in Texas I would LOVE to see it documented. And also know how and where I can "opt out" of such legal "permissions" (perhaps by never using credit to buy anything). And regardless of any legal warrant, I'll state again (and continue doing so) that if you enter my real property without legal permission AND without alerting me to your entry, I will repel your intrusion with deadly force.


****

And I'll just wrap this up by juxtaposing what I consider the "right" way to repossess property and the "wrong" way to repossess property (regardless of any law):

RIGHT WAY: Approach the personal property, and if it sits upon someone else's real property, make every effort to inform the "parties in possession" of the real property that you have the legal permission and intention to take the personal property. If you meet any resistance, retreat until such time as proper law enforcement authorities can be utilized to mediate the disagreement and ensure the repossession without further confrontation.

WRONG WAY: Approach the personal property sitting on someone else's real property surreptitiously, often under cover of darkness. Using force obtain entry and/or possession of the personal property and/or the real property. If confronted by the "parties in possession" of the real property, use force and/or deadly force to repel.