Opinions on Pocket Guns (aka fake guns...)

[The Annoyed Man]

Echoing what wgoforth says. For all practical purposes, I think that the LCP and the P3AT are the same except for the better fit and finish of the LCP. I don't know anything about the Taurus. I own a P3AT, and I bought it when the LCP first came out and was all but unobtanium. I wish I had waited, as the pleasure of ownership is not really a consideration with the Keltec, but might well have been with the LCP.

That said, there are alternatives. For instance, I never really carry my P3AT, because in virtually any situation where that would be a good choice, my S&W 642 is a better choice. Yes, it has 5 rounds only instead of the 6+1 of the Keltec, but as PeteCamp has pointed out, the data surrounding .380 as a defensive round is scarce, the ammo is lately harder to come by, it doesn't expand reliably or penetrate deeply, and the .38 Special in a +P load is significantly more powerful. It also expands more reliably and penetrates better. And a 5 shot snubbie is only marginally harder to conceal than a P3AT or LCP.

BTW, I am a lefty too, and neither of those pistols is an issue for me. As to price, the 642 is kind of pricey, but you might be able to find used ones, or used 442s (the blue steel version of the stainless 642), or their equivalent revolvers from Taurus, in the price range you're looking for. (I'd give you some Taurus model numbers for suggestions, but their website seems to be offline for the moment.)

[Ziran]

Pocket guns are better then nothing. If your choice is a pocket gun or nothing then by all means get one. I own and carry a Kahr PM9 (9mm, 6+1 rounds). But I only carry it whenever there would be significant negative social consequences from somebody noticing I carry.

At all other times I carry a "real" gun, in my case a Glock 17 or Glock 19 and my Kahr PM9 then becomes my backup gun.

Some things to realize about pocket guns:

1) They are very difficult to shoot well/accurately (particularly under stress or when you want to shoot fast).

2) They have a very low ammo capacity. Bad guys work in packs these days. This is a very significant limitation.

3) Because they are small and light they are unpleasant to shoot. That means you will likely not shoot/practice with it very often.

4) Most of them are chambered in .380 which is inadequate as a self defense round (not enough penetration) and the ammo cost is exorbitant even for practice ammo.

My advice would be to get a Glock 19 first. Get a good IWB holster (I peronally I use Comp-Tac MTAC holster). Then if you find that you are committed to carrying a gun then get yourself a pocket gun for NPE situations or as backup.

If you are getting a pocket gun strictly because you do not feel like bothering with a "real gun" and a belt holster you are doing yourself a huge disservice.

[The Annoyed Man]

My advice would be to get a Glock 19 first. Get a good IWB holster (I peronally I use Comp-Tac MTAC holster). Then if you find that you are committed to carrying a gun then get yourself a pocket gun for NPE situations or as backup.

If you are getting a pocket gun strictly because you do not feel like bothering with a "real gun" and a belt holster you are doing yourself a huge disservice.

Yep. My wife owns a G19, and I use an MTAC holster sometimes to carry a similarly sized USP Compact. Of course, it will be more difficult to find a G19 in your stated $300 price range. But, if you can afford an additional $100, you should be able to find a used one in good condition for that price, and it would be a MUCH better choice for self defense.

[txmatt]

TAM makes a good point about giving snub nose revolvers a look. I carry a S&W 642 most of the time since it's so easy to conceal. I originally got it to be a secondary choice during the summer when it's difficult to conceal a 1911 but the snubby is so comfortable that it quicky became my primary choice. Also, I like the .38sp +p round.

[CompVest]

gtrman66,

I have shot all three including the Sig P238 and the Walther PPKS. I prefer the Walther and the Sig. These two have a little more weight to them and so the recoil feels little better. The other three - I don't care for any of them. I am not a fan of the 380 round it offers a lot of recoil relative to it's size in my opinion. However, the caliber is a great for a pocket gun.

[gtrman66]

mouseguns is a pretty good site... thanks for posting!

My brother in law carries a Kahr 9mm in his front pocket. A little rich for my blood, but 9mm is a LOT cheaper. I really liked the way it shot. His buddy sold it to him for $300... doubt I'll ever get that lucky.

Thanks for all the postings, it's giving me a lot of food for thought.

[chartreuse]

Another left hander here. I carry an LCP front pocket. I got it for when my clothing wasn't suited to IWB carrying my Bersa 9mm (I still own many "legacy" pairs of pants that actually fit me) but I find that, even when carrying my 9mm, I tend to bring it along as a spare.

[gtrman66]

After reading up on mouseguns, I would really like to look at a Glock G26 up close. 9mm and pocket sized. It looks like it might even be in the price range if I can find one used. This has been a very infomative thread. Thanks guys!

[joe817]

If you are considering a 9mm sub-compact pistol, here's a pretty good listing of them and their real world prices:

http://www.best9mm.com/compact9mm.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


And here is the .380 listing from the same folks, also pretty comprehensive:

http://www.best9mm.com/380acp.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[surprise_i'm_armed]

gtrman66:

The allure of a pocket gun is somewhat illusory.
We carry guns to protect ourselves and other innocents.

But smaller guns have worse recoil and if you are talking .380's,
good luck on finding any ammo.

I won't comment on the pros and cons of the guns discussed above,
but let me point out that if you are a big boy already (your description),
you may as well consider a larger gun in an IWB or OWB holster.

IIRC, you seem new to carrying. Believe me and others here, once you
carry for a while, even with larger guns, you will hardly know you've got it on.
Your shirts don't have to be tent-sized, just generous enough to eliminate
"printing".

If you get something larger in 9MM, .40, or .45 you will have more stopping
power, the ammo will be much more available than .380, and you WILL be able
to carry concealed successfully.

Good luck in your search. There's a gun out there somewhere with your name
on it. Keep us posted on what you get. A mouse gun in your hand beats a
hand cannon in the truck.

SIA

[drjoker]

Since you're a lefty, go with the Taurus TCP. It has an ambidextrous (kinda) mag release. The mag release is reversible, but there are no instructions on how to do that in the manual. Maybe a competent gunsmith will know.... The other two guns have no ambi mag release.

Be sure to test fire a rental gun before you buy one. If you cannot find a rental Taurus TCP, at least rent a Kel-Tec P3AT or Ruger LCP. I find them all to be very unpleasant guns to fire. Because of the gun's light weight, the recoil is extreme. The recoil is even greater than a 357 magnum! My wrist hurt for a week after shooting just 20 rounds out of these guns. I cannot stand to shoot more than 20 rounds out of these guns. However, they are my favorite carry guns. Why? They are small enough to carry in just about any legal situation.

Here are some examples;
1. I'm at a party with over 30 liberal earth muffins. They just love to hug and talk about such liberal mindless dribble like global warming, etc. The last thing I wanna do is have one of them hug me and feel a gun. These mini 380s are thin enough to feel like a wallet.
2. I'm at my local Baptist church. Lots of hugs there, too.
3. I'm on a date. Things can get, ahem, real personal. How're you gonna explain that big gun when you take off your shirt? It'll totally kill the mood if she just met you. At best, you'll have a lot of mood killing explaining to do. At worst, she'll feel danger and leave. A pocket pistol can be kept in your pocket and out of sight when you get personal.

Finally, before you buy any 380 caliber gun, be sure to buy a big case of ammo. There is a national 380 ammo shortage. It has been a year since I've last spotted any 380 ammo at Wal Mart or Academy. Gun shows are charging people double for the stuff, when it's available.

[A-R]

The recoil is even greater than a 357 magnum!

As my grandpa used to say, this is BUNK! I had never shot an actual .357 Magnum load until last week (had shot a .357 gun, but was shooting .38s in it). There is NO COMPARISON. Even in a stainless steel revolver with 4-inch barrel that weighs more than two pounds empty, the recoil from a .357 Mag is SUBSTANTIALLY greater than that of a .380 in a pocket gun. Heck, just the shockwave from the muzzle blast of a .357 is probably greater than the recoil of a .380. I'd even venture to say the "felt recoil" of my S&W 686 is greater than the felt recoil of my Ruger LCP - though probably the worst felt-recoil of any gun I've ever shot is .38 +P in a S&W J-frame airweight.

Please don't be scared off a .380 pocket gun because of perceived recoil. Are they as fun to shoot as a 1911 or full-size Glock? Of course not. But they're not going to sprain your wrists.

My wrist hurt for a week after shooting just 20 rounds out of these guns. I cannot stand to shoot more than 20 rounds out of these guns.

Were you shooting Buffalo Bore +P+ loads?

[A-R]

I've only fired the LCP. Didn't even consider a gun like this until Ruger made one. No offense to Kel Tec owners, but every time I picked up a P3AT (before LCP came out) I grimaced. They just seem "cheap". But as most have said, that is mainly just fit and finish and plenty of folks carry them and swear by them. I know nothing of the TCP. Just saw my first one today at a gun show. Very similar size. But might as well keep your gun dollars in an American company like Ruger or Kel Tec, right? (this coming from a guy who owns 2 Austrian guns and a German gun )

Also, don't let size envy or caliber wars scare you off either. Not everyone can walk around all day in untucked shirts or wearing a suit coat and never taking it off. There are other ways to conceal a larger gun on your belt or in a shoulder holster, fanny pack, etc. But there will ALWAYS be a time when those methods just wont' work and being able to slip something into your pocket is better than nothing.

I would also advise you to look into a snub-nose revolver as a pocket-carry alternative. Taurus snubs can often be had in your price range and they have a good reputation. But that's a personal choice about what gun works for you.

And eventually you should get something larger to go with a pocket gun for times when you can carry something larger. But I see nothing wrong with a pocket gun as your first gun if that's what you can carry and what you can afford. A modern .380 pocket gun firing modern .380 ammo (Hornady Critical Defense is the answer to the FMJ vs. JHP question in my personal LCP) is a huge improvement over similar sized true pocket guns available just 10 or 15 years ago - mainly .22 or .25 semi-autos with a few .32s mixed in. The smallest .380 in those days was still the 75-year-old Walther PPK design, or maybe an AMT backup or Colt Mustang (all fairly similar in size). The P3AT, LCP, TCP, and a few others have brought the LARGER .380 round into a true pocket gun size once only availabe in much smaller, weaker loads.

And remember, in the very first James Bond movie "Dr. No" he is given the much "larger and more lethal" Walther PPK .380 to replace his Beretta .32 - so if a .380 is good enough for 007 ...

Would I take my LCP if I KNEW I was going into a gun fight? Of course not. I wouldn't take ANY pistol. I'd take a rifle or shotgun. And I only carry my LCP as a last resort if my dress does not allow for carrying any of my other guns. If I have to wear a tucked in shirt, no jacket, and no "fanny pack" or other such concealment device, I have two options:

a) carry a larger gun in a "tuckable" inside the waistband holster
b) carry a pocket gun

The pocket gun often wins out in these scenarios. The tuckable holster, while wonderful for carrying a larger gun all day with tucked shirts, takes a while to put on and is a pain to put back on in public if you have to disarm in a car for some reason (walking into a school, post office, whatever). Plus I can draw from my pocket MUCH faster than I can draw from a tucked holster. In fact, there are some tactical advantages to pocket carry. If you perceive a threat, but it's not yet "go time", you can just casually place your hand in your pocket and on the grip of your pocket gun, ready to draw if need be (can't do that with a belt holster, shoulder holster etc.)

Anyway, you've got some great advise and varied opinions here. Just didn't want you to totally dismiss pocket guns, believe me there is nothing "fake" about pocket guns. And anyone who says they are "fake" or "toys" should offer to be shot with one to prove how ineffectual they are.

[wgoforth]

Austinrealtor;
You said keep gun dollars in America? The TCP is made in the USA in Miami. The only Taurus that currently is with plans for more. There is a size limit on what can be imported so they built the plant for it here.

[Salty1]

As far as smaller 380's are concerned the Sig P238 is IMO the best of the bunch, but you will pay for that. I personally do not like the LCP, bad sights, just an ok trigget and not really fun to shoot. I am playing with a Diamondback right now and like it, although it took 70 rounds to make it reliable the owners manual says 50 to 100 rounds, it has real sights and a much better trigger and for some reason less recoil. it also does not like to be too wet though. The 380's are trade off's due to the size, they are better than not carrying at all. My favorite "small" carry gun is a Ruger LCR with a tuckable IWB. Rated for 38+P it just worked better for me while still remaining fairly small and very easy to conceal.... You cannot go wrong by going to a range and renting any of the guns you are thinking about, that way you will actually get a feel for them and the snap that comes from them.