Threatening incident last Sunday night (Forest/Marsh)

[kestrel]

I wanted to relate an incident that just happened in the Tom Thumb parking lot at Forest and Marsh in Dallas, last Sunday night. It was the first time I had to present my weapon to a civilian. It happened so fast and I'm not sure I did the right thing or not... I know I've been approached like this in the past and did not have/present the weapon...and all was OK. For some reason, last Sunday night just felt different. In any case, I can't think of any other way to say it, so I'll just spill it out, fully, like it happened.

I went to the Thumb at 7PM. I was alone and was in my VW. I parked in a far spot, closer to the street than to the store in other words. I went in the store and got my groceries. Walking back to my car, I became aware of a silver/grey Toyota truck going up and down the parking lanes. It wasn't looking for a spot to park, or so it seemed to me at the time.

I approached my Beetle and heard the truck. I turned and saw it come in rather fast and pull into the spot next to me. I was standing next to the VW's driver door and the truck was next to me. The passenger window rolled down and a large, Black man grinned. "Hi there," he said. I remembered what had happened to me when I was a kid, when some goons tried to distract my father one day while another sneaked up behind, and I looked around to see if there was someone else coming up in my blind spot. I backed up to where I was between the Beetle's and the Toyota's tail lights. The driver was Black as well, and the truck's engine was still running. The passenger door opened and the big guy got out. He was huge. "Can I talk to you?" he said, grinning far too widely for my comfort. There was something particularly menacing about it all. His hands were coming up and at my head level. That's when I decided to draw my pistol. I think I said something to the man, but I cannot remember what I said. I might have said "Oh no," or I could have recited the Napoleonic Code. I simply cannot remember. I didn't even flick off the safety (this is a 1911), though my thumb was riding right on it. His eyes got as big as saucers and he said, "I'm going to live in this car." He then quickly drew back into the cab, shut the door and put his hands on the console. He stared straight ahead; so did the driver. I got into my VW and kept my eye on him. I got out of there and they were still in the parking lot. I called up the manager at the Tom Thumb and related this entire incident to him. He said he would get Security out there, pronto.

Anyway, that is what happened. I don't know why they did not leave; I don't know why I did not call 911 right away (or even if I should have). Things were just moving quickly. I guess the Never Again moment, here, is that never again will I let someone get that close to me in such a threatening situation.

[shortysboy09]

POSTER ANSWERED IN NEXT POST MY APOLOGIES! The gentleman approaching you was quickly invading your personal space by putting his arms out and walking toward you while you were confined between his vehicle and yours. I don't know what his intentions were but you had to stop him from coming towards you in some way or another and doesn't sound like you had time to verbally command him to stop with how close he sounds like he was.

Would you say he was less than 10 feet away from you and closing in?

The only thing I know that you could have done different would be to turn and run away and try to retreat. Then, stand your ground and command him to stop and return to his vehicle. If he does not comply with that then I think that would be the best time present your weapon and make him aware that you mean business. But, in any case your actions stopped him from whatever he was trying to accomplish and thats what matters. You made it home safe and no one was hurt in the process.

Others, if I am off basis please correct me.

[dewayneward]

WOW!! First, glad that all of you are alive to relive the tale. I am sure that others will disagree with me, but I think that you did everything right with drawing.

I dont know (nor care) what others will say, based on what you described, I would have pulled as well. YOU were reasonable sure that your well being was in immediate danger.

Thank you for sharing. Hopefully, no arm chair theologians come along and say something like you should have asked what their intentions were OR shouldnt have went shopping or something

Again, glad you survived!!!

[The Annoyed Man]

I'm not going to criticize. I wasn't there, and I might very well have reacted the same way you did. But, several thoughts do occur to me.

The first is that, if they really intended harm, it seems that their best tactic would have been to pull up behind your car, blocking you in. Pulling into the space next to yours, particularly since the driver never got out, but only the passenger, seems counter-intuitive for a developing assault. It would make it more difficult for them to get out of their vehicle to attack you, and it would make them as much trapped by narrow spaces as it did to you. OTH, if they stop across the back of your car, they have you boxed in; they enjoy the tactical advantage; and they are better situated for a quick getaway.

For those reasons, it seems purely in hindsight that the passenger was more likely going to try to hit you up for some money for gas or some other nonsense. You point out that both men were african-americans, but the intimidating factor seems to to be the sheer size of the passenger, rather than his race (hopefully).

Hindsight being 20/20, is it at all possible that the intimidation was due more to the passenger's size than to any purposefully threatening action on his part?

[pbwalker]

Did you call the police immediately after?

Edited to add: Oops...missed the comment at the end. My apologies...

[shortysboy09]

For those reasons, it seems purely in hindsight that the passenger was more likely going to try to hit you up for some money for gas or some other nonsense. You point out that both men were african-americans, but the intimidating factor seems to to be the sheer size of the passenger, rather than his race (hopefully).

Hindsight being 20/20, is it at all possible that the intimidation was due more to the passenger's size than to any purposefully threatening action on his part?

This is a very good point. However, wouldn't you think if he was simply going to ask for something he would so from the passenger seat of the truck and wouldn't feel the need to exit the vehicle?

[kestrel]

No worries. In response to a previous reply post, I am male and about 5'11". Hard to say why he chose me as a target; I was in a suit and tie with a trench coat. The VW had my Army veteran stickers and shield from my old unit. The fact that he did target me made me (perhaps subconsciously) a little more alert. The person came at me, opening his arms at shoulder height, palms down...sort of what you'd do if you wanted to lay your hands on a friend's shoulders (hardly the thought, here, I believe) or choke someone. The intimidation was from his size and not his race, actually. That, and the fact that as he opened his door, he blocked me from opening/reaching my driver's side door.

[shortysboy09]

No worries. In response to a previous reply post, I am male and about 5'11". Hard to say why he chose me as a target; I was in a suit and tie with a trench coat. The VW had my Army veteran stickers and shield from my old unit. The fact that he did target me made me (perhaps subconsciously) a little more alert. The person came at me, opening his arms at shoulder height, palms down...sort of what you'd do if you wanted to lay your hands on a friend's shoulders (hardly the thought, here, I believe) or choke someone. The intimidation was from his size and not his race, actually. That, and the fact that as he opened his door, he blocked me from opening/reaching my driver's side door.

Okay, makes much more sense to me now. We all have to be very alert these days of what happening around you. I wouldn't let him into my personal space just like you did not do. If someone much larger in stature than me confronted me in this way I would be a little worried as well. I probably would have reacted the same way.

[7075-T7]

Wow, glad everything turned out ok! Blocking you from entering you vehicle seems intentional... scary thought.

[The Annoyed Man]

For those reasons, it seems purely in hindsight that the passenger was more likely going to try to hit you up for some money for gas or some other nonsense. You point out that both men were african-americans, but the intimidating factor seems to to be the sheer size of the passenger, rather than his race (hopefully).

Hindsight being 20/20, is it at all possible that the intimidation was due more to the passenger's size than to any purposefully threatening action on his part?

This is a very good point. However, wouldn't you think if he was simply going to ask for something he would so from the passenger seat of the truck and wouldn't feel the need to exit the vehicle?

An equally valid point, but that said, from the OP description it sounds like when the "perp" exited his vehicle, his back was to his own open door, while Kestrel had the tactical advantage of being able to back up toward the rear of the vehicles and escape into the parking access lane. OTH, the distance was waaaaaaaay too close for comfort, and if he had been aggressive, the perp likely could have closed the distance before Kestrel could have gotten a shot off.

That's why I'm refusing to criticize. My earlier point is simply to how I would have handled it if I were trying to rob someone in a parking lot. The black guys in question were behaving illogically if an assault was their intention. That doesn't mean they weren't planning an assault. It might just mean that they were poor planners. Like I said in my earlier post, I might have done exactly what Kestrel did. I'm just trying to look at all the possible angles and see what I can learn from his experience.

[Kythas]

I think you did the right thing. I may well have drawn in that instance, myself.

What's important is the fact that you didn't have to pull the trigger and you're safe. That's a win in my book.

I find the fact that you didn't call 911 interesting. In my situation last year the thought of calling 911 never entered my mind or the minds of the girls I was with. As for me, it was when I was almost home that I realized "We probably should have called 911".

The fact is, when that situation presents itself we go into "fight or flight" mode. As I said in my post of my situation, God didn't make us with a "Call 911" mode.

[TheReverend]

I'm not going to criticize. I wasn't there, and I might very well have reacted the same way you did. But, several thoughts do occur to me.

The first is that, if they really intended harm, it seems that their best tactic would have been to pull up behind your car, blocking you in. Pulling into the space next to yours, particularly since the driver never got out, but only the passenger, seems counter-intuitive for a developing assault. It would make it more difficult for them to get out of their vehicle to attack you, and it would make them as much trapped by narrow spaces as it did to you. OTH, if they stop across the back of your car, they have you boxed in; they enjoy the tactical advantage; and they are better situated for a quick getaway.

For those reasons, it seems purely in hindsight that the passenger was more likely going to try to hit you up for some money for gas or some other nonsense. You point out that both men were african-americans, but the intimidating factor seems to to be the sheer size of the passenger, rather than his race (hopefully).

Hindsight being 20/20, is it at all possible that the intimidation was due more to the passenger's size than to any purposefully threatening action on his part?

you make an assumption here that the BGs are smart enough to realize the tactical advantage they would gain by positioning their van behind his car. Not all BGs are sophisticated, many of them are just plain dumb.

[gemini]

........... That, and the fact that as he opened his door, he blocked me from opening/reaching my driver's side door.

Not sure what "tactical advantage" blocking the OP's car would have.... the BG's caught the OP outside his car, blocked the OP from opening his drivers door. In addition, a truck parked in the next space, between the front entry to the store and the VW, probably blocked anyone from seeing any potential bad action.
I've had a similar situation at a gas station. Although I only had to place my hand on my weapon ready to draw, I was able to stop the advance with a verbal command and leave the gun holstered. I remained calm during the event. However, I admit, afterward, my heart was slightly racing.
Glad the OP was prepared, and a bad situation was avoided.

[Excaliber]

I'm not going to criticize. I wasn't there, and I might very well have reacted the same way you did. But, several thoughts do occur to me.

The first is that, if they really intended harm, it seems that their best tactic would have been to pull up behind your car, blocking you in. Pulling into the space next to yours, particularly since the driver never got out, but only the passenger, seems counter-intuitive for a developing assault. It would make it more difficult for them to get out of their vehicle to attack you, and it would make them as much trapped by narrow spaces as it did to you. OTH, if they stop across the back of your car, they have you boxed in; they enjoy the tactical advantage; and they are better situated for a quick getaway.

For those reasons, it seems purely in hindsight that the passenger was more likely going to try to hit you up for some money for gas or some other nonsense. You point out that both men were african-americans, but the intimidating factor seems to to be the sheer size of the passenger, rather than his race (hopefully).

Hindsight being 20/20, is it at all possible that the intimidation was due more to the passenger's size than to any purposefully threatening action on his part?

you make an assumption here that the BGs are smart enough to realize the tactical advantage they would gain by positioning their van behind his car. Not all BGs are sophisticated, many of them are just plain dumb.

Or not so dumb. Here's how I read the situation from the details given here:

The tactic the guy who confronted the OP used was a good one for a strong arm robbery. It positioned the potential victim within a step or two of the approach guy in a location with very little maneuverability (except directly to the victim's rear), with non participant visibility of what was about to happen restricted to only the very narrow sight lines in direct alignment with the space between the two vehicles, effectively precluding witness worries.

The driver stayed in his seat to facilitate a quick getaway, and because the passenger's size gave these folks the confidence that a second set of hands wasn't needed outside the vehicle. The "Can I talk to you" line was similar to the "What time is it?" - a distractor intended to divert the intended victim's attention for a second or so and cause him to hesitate in place as the final approach is made. The clincher that this was not intended to be a conversational exchange was the raising and extension of the hands as the passenger closed in.

According to the account, the OP was in reasonable fear of an imminent robbery or attack on his person and in a disparity of force situation due to the size of the person who approached him. He used the threat of force to end the threat to himself.

Calling 911 with the tag number of the vehicle and the description of the subjects would have been a better move than calling the store manager because it may well have resulted in the arrest of persons wanted for other completed crimes (like eating potato chips, these guys never stop at just one). It also would have protected the OP against a cagey move by the suspects if they had called 911 to report that a crazy guy with a gun confronted them in the parking lot. Consider how you'd explain that you felt endangered to the point where the threat of deadly force was needed to resolve the situation, but it wasn't bad enough to report to the police.

More bad guys are becoming aware of this option, and it can get costly when they call 911 and you don't. Police figure the real victim will call to make a complaint, and will usually arrest the guy who didn't.

[The Annoyed Man]

As usual, Excaliber brings clarity to the situation. Thanks for the explanation.