my chl class, is this normal?

[sjfcontrol]

If they teach the things they're supposed to teach about the law, nonviolent dispute resolution, etc. there's not a lot of time to teach remedial handgunning in a 10 hour class, but maybe in a 15 hour class. Not that most video junkies teach a full curriculum, but there are lazy and incompetent people in every profession.

50% of the time is waiting for the class to get fingerprinted, do their shooting test, getting forms signed, getting photos, etc.

I'm pretty sure that isn't what was intended with the 10 hour requirement, but that's how it is.

The "procedural" time (filling out forms, pictures, fingerprints, etc) is not supposed to be counted toward the 10 hours of class time. That's supposed to be instructional time only.

[AWB09]

The "procedural" time (filling out forms, pictures, fingerprints, etc) is not supposed to be counted toward the 10 hours of class time. That's supposed to be instructional time only.

Maybe it's supposed to be, but from the stories I hear it's common for instructors to spend hours on the "procedural" and short change the teaching. Look how many people "pass" their CHL class and have no clue about where is off limits, confuse the castle doctrine with the motorist protection act, believe the "one drop" rule, and so on.

[wgoforth]

My CHL class was pathetic... the two instructors used profanity constantly, about every sentence. And when they weren't, the other class members (including the women) were. We're not talking bubba good-ol-boy, these were professional people. The class was taught to the test, and right before we took the test, he asked us all of the questions that were on the test. Not to mention, we were told some incorrect things such as you cannot carry in a house of worship whether posted or not. The one instructor doing the conflict resolution section apologized for having it, and then read his entire lecture word for word from some book.
Sadly, there are few things that people will pay more for to get less of than education.
Wayne

[koolaid]

The "procedural" time (filling out forms, pictures, fingerprints, etc) is not supposed to be counted toward the 10 hours of class time. That's supposed to be instructional time only.

Maybe it's supposed to be, but from the stories I hear it's common for instructors to spend hours on the "procedural" and short change the teaching. Look how many people "pass" their CHL class and have no clue about where is off limits, confuse the castle doctrine with the motorist protection act, believe the "one drop" rule, and so on.

I think if they'd bump the requirement up to a mandatory 15 hours, or drop them down to 8 this problem would stop because they would either be forced to do two day classes, or there would be enough time at the end of normal business hours to take care of the extra stuff. With 10 hours everyone still wants a one day class, but who wants to stay in a classroom for 13 hours in one day...students or instructors? None, apparently.

[Greybeard]

Quote: "who wants to stay in a classroom for 13 hours in one day...students or instructors? None, apparently."

Don't be so sure about that. From 8:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. with a one-hour lunch break has been my standard "classroom" format for years. Then, for those who want to shoot the same day, we go to the indoor range (right next to the classroom). It makes for a looooong day, but that is the way most folks prefer. At least "experienced" people - I do not try to integrate new shooters in the range on the same day.

Fingerprint gal and I have got the "procedural" stuff down to the point that we can knock out the photos, affidavits and prints in about 1/2 hour. And she does it manually and had zero (zilch, nada!) re-dos in all of 2009.

Quote: "believe the "one drop" rule, and so on." Not clear on the meaning of "one drop" rule. I've been doing this since '95 and that's the first time I've heard that one ... ?

[Deans]

My class was informative to a point. Spent a lot of time getting paper work, finger prints, photos etc done. Had to pass the shooting part first, there was no use taking the classroom part if you can't shoot.

At the last Dallas Gun Show at Market Hall talked to one of the vendors who said they were a CHL instructor and that the written test for the CHL will be conducted online on the DPS website. You will have so many days to take the test if you don't test in time you will have to take the class over. This is what I was told anyway.

[koolaid]

Quote: "who wants to stay in a classroom for 13 hours in one day...students or instructors? None, apparently."

Don't be so sure about that. From 8:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. with a one-hour lunch break has been my standard "classroom" format for years. Then, for those who want to shoot the same day, we go to the indoor range (right next to the classroom). It makes for a looooong day, but that is the way most folks prefer. At least "experienced" people - I do not try to integrate new shooters in the range on the same day.

Well that's good to hear. I wish mine had been like that. I just think that slightly shifting the hours required in either direction would have a positive impact on the instructors who don't feel as adamant about it as you do.

[apostate]

At the last Dallas Gun Show at Market Hall talked to one of the vendors who said they were a CHL instructor and that the written test for the CHL will be conducted online on the DPS website. You will have so many days to take the test if you don't test in time you will have to take the class over. This is what I was told anyway.

I'm not sure I believe their story but it could be interesting, especially if the pool of test questions was several times larger, rather like FCC or FAA written exams.

[Oldgringo]

I got my shootin' a long time ago. I got my license via a class.

I got my learnin' via this forum.

[OldSchool]

I'm not sure I believe their story but it could be interesting, especially if the pool of test questions was several times larger, rather like FCC or FAA written exams.

I've had both (FAA and FCC), and I agree with you for CHL -- a large pool of test questions would allow a similar kind of preparation before the test, and thus require less class time.

However, I've been wondering if the 10-hour requirement was not so much intended to provide technical and legal training (which seems to me could be accomplished out of class), but maybe more intended to spend more time helping new students realize the gravity of what they are getting into (i.e., focusing on the the "Appreciation" part of learning)?

Indeed, this forum seems to focus as much on the "Appreciation" of the seriousness of this CHL art as on anything else!

[marksiwel]

one could argue that just "wasting" 10 hours of your life (not counting all the running around you have to do), and hundreds of dollars, just so you can exercise your "Right to keep and bear arms" is enough of a hassle, so that even if the class is sorta badly done, it doesnt matter because you shouldnt have to go through it anyways.
Not that I'm saying that.
One of the reasons I go here is because, there is still SOOOO much I dont know about concealed carry and the laws

[boomerang]

I think if they'd bump the requirement up to a mandatory 15 hours, or drop them down to 8 this problem would stop because they would either be forced to do two day classes, or there would be enough time at the end of normal business hours to take care of the extra stuff. With 10 hours everyone still wants a one day class, but who wants to stay in a classroom for 13 hours in one day...students or instructors? None, apparently.

I think the solution is better enforcement, if instructors are cutting corners, rather than encouraging them to cut more corners by doing an 8 hour class.

Alternately, do the written exams online and have randomized tests from a much larger question pool, as previously suggested. Instructors who teach an honest class should have a much higher student pass rate than those who cut corners, and the problem becomes self correcting from word of mouth when students fail and tell all their friends. Even better, make it like the DL with no required class. You can take a class if you like, or self study, but you have to pass the written and practical tests for your initial license. CHL renewals could be done like DL renewals, at a similar price.

And they should make the DL and CHL address changes the same price.

[Skiprr]

At the last Dallas Gun Show at Market Hall talked to one of the vendors who said they were a CHL instructor and that the written test for the CHL will be conducted online on the DPS website. You will have so many days to take the test if you don't test in time you will have to take the class over. This is what I was told anyway.

I'm not sure I believe their story...

Apostate is correct.

Charles addressed this last month:

There are several unfounded rumors running around about changes to the CHL program. I'll address a few here.

Alice Tripp and I meet with DPS Monday about a number of CHL issues. I mentioned the rumors I had heard about an online test for CHL's; requiring a CHL's application be approved by DPS before they could take the course; and a few others. The short answer is that there is no truth to any of these rumors. All present thought it was ironic that some of the rumors began at instructor renewal schools.

We were specifically told that the only online test in the works is the one for CHL Instructor renewals and that is because a change in the Gov't Code makes this mandatory. There is nothing in the works for an online test for CHL's, but obviously that could change in the future. We discussed the fact that doing anything that prevented instructors from offering one-stop classes was a step in the wrong direction and they agreed. The only exception was the movement toward requiring digital fingerprints only and that absolutely is coming. There were discussions about applicants in rural areas not close to a FAST location and we offered suggestions that were well received.

The ex-Navy SEAL that was running the CHL division for a short while has moved to another department. The new head of the division is a DPS Captain and I'm very happy to report that his enthusiasm for streamlining the entire process equals that of his predecessor. They are rapidly moving toward a fully automated online system that will be much better for everyone. We also discussed potential changes to the statute that would help even more and I believe we will be able to work together on beneficial legislation. I know the question is coming, so let me say that I can't give any details about the legislative improvements we want to pass in 2011. This is an open forum and I don't want our opposition to know what's in the works.

The new leadership team in the CHL division remains dedicated to improving the entire system, but if that changes, I'll be the first to publish that information.

Chas.

[davidtx]

The "procedural" time (filling out forms, pictures, fingerprints, etc) is not supposed to be counted toward the 10 hours of class time. That's supposed to be instructional time only.

Maybe it's supposed to be, but from the stories I hear it's common for instructors to spend hours on the "procedural" and short change the teaching. Look how many people "pass" their CHL class and have no clue about where is off limits, confuse the castle doctrine with the motorist protection act, believe the "one drop" rule, and so on.

I think if they'd bump the requirement up to a mandatory 15 hours, or drop them down to 8 this problem would stop because they would either be forced to do two day classes, or there would be enough time at the end of normal business hours to take care of the extra stuff. With 10 hours everyone still wants a one day class, but who wants to stay in a classroom for 13 hours in one day...students or instructors? None, apparently.

I took my class at Red's in Austin (the south location). We went from 8am to about 10pm. The instructor, Calvin Tidwell is a retired LEO and manages the Red's north location. I thought he did a very good job covering the law and tempering enthusiasm by exploring some scenarios and what the subsequent time with the Grand Jury would be like. He was tough on the range and did cover the NRA safety rules, weaver, modified weaver, etc. While he didn't direct me to this forum, he did leave me with a desire to learn much more and get more training.

-davidtx

[jmorris]

Took mine from Gary Swan (Kenpo Karate in Universal City) and it was excellent. It was 9 1/2 hours of instruction, real life cases, lots of good advice. Didn't teach to the test but covered every thing on the test. Retired airborne, ranger, pathfinder Sergeant Major. The other 1/2 hour was going over the paperwork. He and his wife Dee, ex-Air Force Combat Control instructor, teach tactical classes too. From the comments about some other instructors I evidently got lucky.