To Chamber or not to Chamber?

[jeeperbryan]

I really hope the chance of an AD is lower than 1%. That would imply that there is an AD approximately once every 100 instances of carrying, so about 3-4 per year . I understand your argument, though - that carrying with one in the chamber inherently makes your chance of an AD go over 0%, but I think it's in the neighborhood of .0001%. I'm probably reading too much into it, but I'm a bit of a math nerd.

Yep, the chance of AD is definitely less than 1%. But it's certainly some value greater than 0% :)

[Keith B]

I really hope the chance of an AD is lower than 1%. That would imply that there is an AD approximately once every 100 instances of carrying, so about 3-4 per year . I understand your argument, though - that carrying with one in the chamber inherently makes your chance of an AD go over 0%, but I think it's in the neighborhood of .0001%. I'm probably reading too much into it, but I'm a bit of a math nerd.

Yep, the chance of AD is definitely less than 1%. But it's certainly some value greater than 0% :)

The percentage is probably greater than 1% if you are a professional football player with a Glock stuck in your sweatpants and no holster.

[frazzled]

Yep, almost a statistical certainty.

[WildBill]

I really hope the chance of an AD is lower than 1%. That would imply that there is an AD approximately once every 100 instances of carrying, so about 3-4 per year . I understand your argument, though - that carrying with one in the chamber inherently makes your chance of an AD go over 0%, but I think it's in the neighborhood of .0001%. I'm probably reading too much into it, but I'm a bit of a math nerd.

Yep, the chance of AD is definitely less than 1%. But it's certainly some value greater than 0% :)

The percentage is probably greater than 1% if you are a professional football player with a Glock stuck in your sweatpants and no holster.

Or if you are a "professional" DEA agent!

[chabouk]

Yep, the chance of AD is definitely less than 1%. But it's certainly some value greater than 0% :)

To be meaningful for this discussion, we need two figures:
1. The rate of AD in guns that are always loaded, with safety systems working, carried in a holster.
2. The rate of AD in guns that are carried "less than loaded", then fired unintentionally while working the slide, or while trying to lower the hammer to half notch.

I don't know the numbers, but given that #2 requires more handling than #1, it is a safe assumption that the AD rate will be higher.

[chabouk]

Page 4:
Always store and carry this product empty, with
the hammer forward on an empty chamber.

Not even the product liability lawyers who wrote that really believe it. The engineers and designers certainly don't.

BASIC NRA RULES FOR SAFE GUN
HANDLING
3. ALWAYS KEEP THE GUN UNLOADED
UNTIL READY TO USE.

A gun that is locked and loaded and safely holstered is "in use".

[Shorts]

Carry a hammer if you don't want to load your gun. It'll be cheaper and you don't need a license


Really, if you're carrying, load it and put one in the chamber. You won't have time. There are a number of these surprise moments on the forums that teach the lesson without the pain. Things happen when you drop your guard. Then it's too late and its hitting the fan before you even realize it. Don't learn the hard way.

[jeeperbryan]

Carry a hammer if you don't want to load your gun. It'll be cheaper and you don't need a license.

Carrying a gun without one in the chamber does not render it useless. Only if you carry a gun with no ammo does it become useless. This is the worst argument for carrying one in the chamber.

You won't have time.

This is the most common and viable argument for carrying one in the chamber. To play devils advocate, what if you did have time though? And because you reacted so quickly, you shot someone by mistake? Maybe they were reaching for their cell phone and you shot them thinking they were armed? How many important decisions have you made in your life that only take 1 second of thought?

[Shorts]

Carry a hammer if you don't want to load your gun. It'll be cheaper and you don't need a license.

Carrying a gun without one in the chamber does not render it useless. Only if you carry a gun with no ammo does it become useless. This is the worst argument for carrying one in the chamber.

You won't have time.

This is the most common and viable argument for carrying one in the chamber. To play devils advocate, what if you did have time though? And because you reacted so quickly, you shot someone by mistake? Maybe they were reaching for their cell phone and you shot them thinking they were armed? How many important decisions have you made in your life that only take 1 second of thought?

It'll be as useless as the person's ability and the intensity of the threat. "Worst argument" or not, its on the list of arguments. You can accept whatever arguments you want. I don't need to rack my brain figuring out new ones for a person to accept as ultimately it's not my butt on the line. If the person chooses to ignore an argument for their own comfort, hopefully they won't end up in a situation where their decision hurt. Hindsight is always 20/20, if you're afforded the luxury of hindsight. And since it skimmed over your head, the hammer comment was mostly in jest. I won't need to point out the irony should things hit the fan and the person fails.


A lesson HERE (don't need to read the left field conversation after the main point)


What if you had time? Why would I want to take a chance with "what if" if I can skip that step completely? Why should I even consider adding that variable if I don't have to?


BTW, do tell what is THE BEST reason for carrying one in the chamber so I can switch my reasoning. Because frankly, the end result is the same between the best and worst - having on in the chamber.

[VoiceofReason]

LOL...so...you choose to blow off the part about not carrying half cocked, the part about damaging the firearm and the part about not carrying a round chambered???? They plainly tell you your wrong. Make of it what you want.

PS I forgot to point out one more flaw in your choice of carry. You cannot engage the thumb safety when the gun is "half cocked".

Further discussion of this topic is pointless. You are not going to convince me I am wrong in the way I carry and I do not intend to convince you the way you carry is wrong.

Yes I do “choose to blow off the part about not carrying half cocked” and “the part about damaging the firearm”. Why are you so concerned about me damaging my firearm? I check it on a regular basis and if I do damage it I think I can afford to have it repaired. If it cannot be repaired I can afford to pay the $1200.00 to replace it at any time, with no problem. As a matter of fact I could buy another one exactly like it to carry while it is being repaired.

Read my post again. I do carry one in the chamber and I am aware you cannot engage the safety with it on half cock. I don’t need to. I will repeat, I check it on a regular basis with “snap caps” in it to make sure the hammer will not fall when I pull the trigger with it on “half cock”.

As far as having to use it quickly, I practice cocking it to “full cock” as I draw it with “snap caps” in it on a regular basis also.

You sir do not know me or anything about me. You do not know why I actually carry two guns and can shoot equally well left handed or right handed.

As I stated further discussion of this topic is pointless. I do not have to justify the way I carry to you or anyone else and I do not expect anyone else to justify the way they carry to me.

[VoiceofReason]

For those whose curiosity about why I actually carry two guns and can shoot equally well left handed or right handed must be satisfied, I am disabled and at times I may not be able to get to my Kimber with my right hand. I can also shoot as well sitting down as most people can standing up.

[jeeperbryan]

It'll be as useless as the person's ability and the intensity of the threat. "Worst argument" or not, its on the list of arguments. You can accept whatever arguments you want. I don't need to rack my brain figuring out new ones for a person to accept as ultimately it's not my butt on the line. If the person chooses to ignore an argument for their own comfort, hopefully they won't end up in a situation where their decision hurt. Hindsight is always 20/20, if you're afforded the luxury of hindsight. And since it skimmed over your head, the hammer comment was mostly in jest. I won't need to point out the irony should things hit the fan and the person fails.
.

Understood. But to say a gun with out a bullet in the chamber is worthless, is simply not true. A vehicle without gas in the tank is not worthless. All you have to do is put gas in the tank. Inconvenient? Yes. Worthless? No.

A lesson HERE (don't need to read the left field conversation after the main point)

Great example. But what if he shot the dog mistakenly? What if he accidentally shot the innocent owner running behind the dog? Maybe the fact that he didn't have one in the chamber kept him out of jail??

What if you had time? Why would I want to take a chance with "what if" if I can skip that step completely? Why should I even consider adding that variable if I don't have to?

Because we're dealing with life and death. And I feel it's fair to ask these questions when dealing with yours or someone else's life.

BTW, do tell what is THE BEST reason for carrying one in the chamber so I can switch my reasoning. Because frankly, the end result is the same between the best and worst - having on in the chamber.

There is no best reason for carrying chambered. Just as there is no best reason for carrying unchambered. I'd like to say we can agree to disagree, but I don't disagree with carry chambered. I just like to question the necessity to carry chambered.

[Shorts]

Understood. But to say a gun with out a bullet in the chamber is worthless, is simply not true. A vehicle without gas in the tank is not worthless. All you have to do is put gas in the tank. Inconvenient? Yes. Worthless? No.

When your car is used for self defense, then inconvenient or not, yes, worthless without gas.

Serious now:
Is the use of your car absolutely necessary to ensure help is on the way? If so, then bet its worthless. When your cell phone is out of range or has dead batteries, and you're pinned under some rocks when you fell into the crevice on your hiking trip, it's worthless. On any other day it's an inconvenience. When you NEED IT NOW and it doesn't work, it's worthless. We can play this worthless or inconvenient game all day long with a lot of different tools. Fact is, when you carry a tool to use, if it isn't 100% ready to go the second you need it, it may very well be life or death. You may choose to add an element of chance to your carry concerns, I don't. When so much else is out of my control, the things I can control to add to my advantage will be done.

Great example. But what if he shot the dog mistakenly? What if he accidentally shot the innocent owner running behind the dog? Maybe the fact that he didn't have one in the chamber kept him out of jail??

Maybe.
I have been rushed by an attacking dog. I had one in the chamber. I didn't go to jail.

Because we're dealing with life and death. And I feel it's fair to ask these questions when dealing with yours or someone else's life.

Yes, we are. So why add risk and chance by leaving the chamber empty? Why would you assume you'll always have time?

There is no best reason for carrying chambered. Just as there is no best reason for carrying unchambered. I'd like to say we can agree to disagree, but I don't disagree with carry chambered. I just like to question the necessity to carry chambered.

Well if there is no best, how can you qualify the worst? It comes down to time and opportunity. Assuming those will be on your side all the time, in my book, is foolish. As you said, we're dealing with life and death. I don't chance it. I have one hand. You bet here's a difference between one in the chamber and empty. If you're mugging me, what condition do you hope my gun is in?

[jeeperbryan]

What if it was illegal to carry a gun with one in the chamber? Would you stop carrying because your gun is useless now?

[WildBill]

What if it was illegal to carry a gun with one in the chamber? Would you stop carrying because your gun is useless now?

FWIW, you can carry a handgun with an empty chamber without a CCW in Utah.