Sitting in a restaurant.......

[mctowalot]

I pray that none of us have to live out any of the proposed situations. But chances are...
Allow me to add some twists. What if it's an inside job? The cashier is a great actor - but he points you out to the bad guy? Or ...insert your ideas here.
I will tell you what happened to a friend of mine, short version: My friend was working night shift, got called home re: family emergency. His intention was to get gas at the end of his shift, now he's got no choice but to stop on they way home (or run out of gas). While pumping gas, guy sneaks up and robs him at gunpoint. My friend has skills most don't, or he was lucky, blessed, or all three. Takes BG's gun, beats him up, gets his stuff back. Happy ending? Nope. BG has 4 friends in a car watching this. Crazy chase ensues...
I'm not telling this one for entertainment. My friend is still alive thank God.
Moral: Things aren't always what they appear to be, watch your back. God bless you and your families. And now I'll be jumping off my soap box...

[KD5NRH]

How much more deadly can the situation get? Well he could shoot the cashier, I guess.

Exactly my problem with the "good witness" approach: the first indication that it's going downhill will be when the cashier takes a bullet in the face.

If an armed BG had the drop on you, wouldn't you hope that someone around would have the guts to do something more than get a good description while he's taking up slack on the trigger?

[surprise_i'm_armed]

dewayneward said: I am thinking back to the situation with the kid at the Burger King (I think it was in Florida) where the good guy got shot with a bryco.380 or something a few times, but shot the bad guy in the chest with a .45 and he dropped dead (please dont turn this into a caliber argument, this is just what I remember about the incident).

You are correct that the BG had a Bryco .380. He shot the GG 3 times, but did not kill him.
The GG used a Glock 19, which is a 9MM.

The GG saw the robbery in progress, drew, but asked the BG to drop his weapon.
The BG responded by opening fire. The GG returned fire at that point.

SIA

[dicion]

dewayneward said: I am thinking back to the situation with the kid at the Burger King (I think it was in Florida) where the good guy got shot with a bryco.380 or something a few times, but shot the bad guy in the chest with a .45 and he dropped dead (please dont turn this into a caliber argument, this is just what I remember about the incident).

You are correct that the BG had a Bryco .380. He shot the GG 3 times, but did not kill him.
The GG used a Glock 19, which is a 9MM.

The GG saw the robbery in progress, drew, but asked the BG to drop his weapon.
The BG responded by opening fire. The GG returned fire at that point.

SIA

Another good reason to NOT give the BG advance warning. Verbal warning is not required in the deadly force statutes. If it's justified, it's justified. Plain and Simple. Draw, Aim and shoot. Front, Side, Back, doesn't matter.
You can yell 'DROP THE GUN' at him if you really want to, once he's on the floor bleeding.

[particle]

You can yell 'DROP THE GUN' at him if you really want to, once he's on the floor bleeding.

[budroux2w]

You can yell 'DROP THE GUN' at him if you really want to, once he's on the floor bleeding.

x2

[GatoNegro]

Folks,

After reading through all this thoughts, I think I would draw and keep it under the table, only taking action if the BG shoots anybody or anything. Very interesting.

Now, does the law say anything about shooting at somebody that was NOT shooting at you?

Regards,
GatoNegro

[dicion]

Now, does the law say anything about shooting at somebody that was NOT shooting at you?

It says this. From the DPS CHL Handbook:


I had to post all 3 parts, because each references back to the previous as a requirement.

Notice the parts about 'imminent commission of... robbery, or aggrivated robbery'

Then, look at the 'defense of third persons' section, that basically says, if the person that has the gun being pointed at them would be justified in using lethal force to protect themselves, then you are justified to do the same to protect them.

[Hos]

If possible, I'd give it a few minutes to see if LEO shows up. (Can you text LEO? That would be cool ) But without more info and based on what is known I'd shoot if a clear shot was presented and no bystanders were behind the BG and then find some cover away from people if possible in case there's a 2nd BG lurking around. If there were 2 BG then probably not initiate anything unless they were right next to each other and distracted. We don't want to fire first and then with 2 vs. 1 have a shootout with bystanders around ...unless they initiated the esclation thru shooting 1st or doing other felonies. With 2 vs. 1, unless it's less then 10 feet away and they already started firing, there's a fair degree that I could miss due to the massive adrenalin pumping and the BG's moving around then the risks may outweigh the benefit.

I'm just blessed to have this CHL option in case the chicken poop hits the coop.

[R_Comstock]

Firstly, are any of us a good enough shot to neutralize the threat without the possibility of 'collateral damage?' Secondly, add the adrenaline of a high-stress situation to that and your answer SHOULD be a resounding "no." I've been military/law enforcement for 10 years now with extensive gun and defense training and I can safely say no. Thirdly, we as LEOs are ALWAYS taught to "not be a hero." Why is that? Well, what's the difference between a CHL holder and a hero? The CHL holder is still alive.

Now, if all the variables that have been discussed so far are in the CHL's favor you're damn right I'm going to take the shot. Also, it has been proven time and again that MOST (emphasis on MOST) BGs will turn tail and run when confronted with the pointy end of someone else's gun. So perhaps just the show of force would be enough to neutralize the situation completely...perhaps not. There's a lot of tactical thinking that needs to go with this scenario. (most of which have already been mentioned i.e. other BGs who have not revealed themselves yet, other CHLs who may be thinking the same thing you are, etc...)

This question should refresh everyone's mind that one should be always testing himself while carrying. Constantly be aware of your surroundings and play 'what-if' scenarios in your mind...even while sitting at Chili's enjoying dinner with your XYL.

[C-dub]

I don't know and am not trying to be sarcastic, but does anyone know of a case where there were multiple BGs and one or more did not reveal themselves once the robbery began? Do they really think that much about what they're doing? I think they may be stealthy about getting into position, but once the robbery has begun don't they always out themselves as BGs? I'm just thinking that they don't think about it this much. The guys that pull this kind of crime aren't really that smart.

[RPB]

I don't know and am not trying to be sarcastic, but does anyone know of a case where there were multiple BGs and one or more did not reveal themselves once the robbery began? Do they really think that much about what they're doing? I think they may be stealthy about getting into position, but once the robbery has begun don't they always out themselves as BGs? I'm just thinking that they don't think about it this much. The guys that pull this kind of crime aren't really that smart.

I won't comment on their smartness, however in a real situation involving myself, when the gun was pointed at my head, my attention was on that guy, and I'm sure the cashiers up front were noticing their guy pointing the gun at them,... neither of us really taking notice of the other's situation and associated bad guy holding a gun, until several, several moments went by. At which time I decided it would be a really bad move to grab my Guy's cylinder on his revolver and take it from him, and they decided not to hit their guy with a cash drawer and try to run out the front door screaming like a bunch of girls.
We were in different parts of the store, with a 4' tall aisle between us we could see over, but right at first, the closest barrel catches your attention, AND TUNNEL VISION SETS IN .... hopefully if another bad guy is around, you become aware of it before you do anything stupid that attracts the attention of the bad guy. Even if only one bad guy is there, hopefully no one ELSE will draw his attention to you before you want his attention (see below) Right at FIRST, You get tunnel vision and become aware of him and yourself.

In this hypothetical resturant situation, the tunnel vision would go away quickly .... when you hear ....
"Mommy Mommy look!!! Look at the pretty red dot coming from under that table" says the 4 year old while pointing at you.
Or the other short boy hollaring to his dad and pointing that you must be a policeman because he sees your gun under the table.... or even the families with too many out of control kids, whee one runs up to your table thinking yours is a toy like his at home, and asks if he can see/play with your gun.
Never underestimate Other people giving you away, kids especially, they are extremely observant and experts at speaking when they shouldn't.

Take a moment and fully assess the situation, not only the bad guy, not only who is behind the bad guy in case of overpenetration, not only who is near the bad guy, in case yor hand shakes and you miss (it will shake) but also all over the restaurant, for kids etc who tend to open their mouths when they shouldn't, etc. etc. etc ... especially watch out for that tunnelvision..... I been there n had it.


Personally in this hypothetical situation, I'd probably have my hand resting on my gun, concealed in my holster/fannypack whatever, slightly loosened from the holster and ready to draw..... but still concealed, not under a table for kids to see who are looking under tables for free gum stuck under there or to see whose underwear is showing (that could have been me as a kid). Mommy Mommy I declare, I see someone's underwear, and that man has a gun (pointing).

[Mike1951]

And unless you are eating alone, you're going to draw fire to anyone near you: family, friends, etc.

[ghostrider]

>And unless you are eating alone, you're going to draw fire to anyone near you: family, friends, etc.


Its good to have these discussions; Someone (above) can point out things that maybe not everyone thinks of.

[RPB]

>And unless you are eating alone, you're going to draw fire to anyone near you: family, friends, etc.


Its good to have these discussions; Someone (above) can point out things that maybe not everyone thinks of.

Yes, very good point.

So, if any of you who want to hold your gun under a table eat in Burnet and this situation arises, please sit on the other side of the restaurant from me, so you can draw the bad guy's attention after the kids all gather around you asking about your gun, so I have plenty of time to draw and aim at the bad guy.