Under 21 - No Reciprocity

[KFP]

I wonder how many Texas residents under the age of 21 have permits. Are we limiting our reciprocity for just a handful of people or is there significant numbers there? We should find out if those states that are not granting because of age will if we removed the 21 age exception. Maybe get something prepared for the 2011 legislative session.

I am not willing to throw veterans or Military folks under the bus, just so I can carry in a couple extra states.

It just wouldn't be right/

This is why I think the best (most difficult) route is to somehow focus on the states limiting reciprocity solely because we issue to military under 21. If they decide they don't want those under 21 carrying in their state - just say that and let the rest of us do so.

I've slowly been working on states that appear to restrict us because of this and come up with Ohio, Oregon, Nevada, and New Hampshire. I'm still working on getting letters out to some lawmakers in those states, but it's at the bottom of my pile of things to do right now.

[jack010203]

When I first read this tread, I thought immediately "leave the law alone and to heck with the other states, if military members are willing to risk there life for me, they should be allowed to carry at 18". And I can always get an out of state permit if its is that big of a deal to me.

After thinking this over for a while, I saw a parallel in another set of laws that I am adamantly against, "hate-crime" laws. That parallel is that they both create a special class of people.

My opinion on the matter, FWIW, is that the law should be changed to allow all 18 yr olds to get there CHL, or make everyone wait until 21. Although my personal opinion is that we should have unlicensed and unrestricted CC and OC. The above two options seem like more realistic possibilities.

I would obviously prefer that all 18 yr olds be allowed to get there CHL, and since we are supposedly loosing reciprocity from allowing some 18yrs now why not let them all?

[roberts]

I am not willing to throw veterans or Military folks under the bus, just so I can carry in a couple extra states.

It just wouldn't be right/

Why are you willing to throw college students and nurses and waitresses under the bus? How is that right?

[seamusTX]

In a democracy, some laws are going to be based on prejudice. (That's probably true in every other form of government.) No magical transformation takes place on your 21st birthday that makes you more responsible than the day before.

I remember when the drinking age was lowered in the 1970s and 80s, around the time that the voting age was lowered to 18. There was an explosion of DWI crashes and deaths among 18- to 21-year-olds, and that age group lost the ability to drink legally. (Of course they still mange to get booze, and alcohol abuse is a problem even among pre-teens now.)

The laws are full of these arbitrary age-based milestones, everything from the age of compulsory education to eligibility to run for political office.

Anyone who has a strategy to get the legislature to allow all 18-year-olds to get a CHL is welcome to try, and I will support them. I don't see it happening.

- Jim

[Captain Matt]

When it comes time for renewal, I'm going to look at it logically. If Texas can work out the reciprocity issues, I'll renew my CHL. If I can get better reciprocity at a cheaper cost with a license from another state, then that's what I'll do. I resolve to set aside emotional distractions like Texas pride and make the decision based strictly on cost/benefit analysis.

[Liberty]

I am not willing to throw veterans or Military folks under the bus, just so I can carry in a couple extra states.

It just wouldn't be right/

Why are you willing to throw college students and nurses and waitresses under the bus? How is that right?

The difference is its not us Texans that are throwing the visitors to other states under the bus. It is just a couple of states that don't seem to have much respect for people protecting our lives.
Most of these states there are other alternatives to allow carrying. A New Hampshire non resident license is pretty easy to get, I believe a Utah Permit will cover Nevada, I don't like it that I can't carry in a couple of these states either, but I look at it as the price of freedom.

To ask our young people to take up arms against a foreign enemy, and then deny them the right to take up arms to defend themselves in their own state, is so far out on the hypocrisy scale its not even worth discussing. Just my thoughts.

'nuff said

[Liberty]

I would obviously prefer that all 18 yr olds be allowed to get there CHL, and since we are supposedly loosing reciprocity from allowing some 18yrs now why not let them all?

an 18 year old service member has had firearms and safety training and prove to some extent that he has some discipline. More so than most 21 year olds who have not served.
While I wouldn't be opposed to letting 18 year olds be allowed to CHLS, It would be pretty much a certainty that we would lose more than the 4 we don't have.

[Liberty]

I also don't recall when the age limit was reduced to 18 for active military, but if it was as early as 2003 (I don't believe it was) then I estimate the total CHL's under age 21 to be 170. This number is based upon actual CHL's issued in 2006 (19), 2007 (47) and 2008 (36) used collectively to get an average of 34 per year and adding twice that number (for 2005 and 2004) to the 2006-2008 total of 102 to get 170.


Chas.

Sorry old thread I know, but ...

The problem with your math is that the under 21 over 18 year olds turn 21 rather quickly. Almost all of those under 21 who were issued CHLs would be 21 or older by 2008.

[roberts]

I am not willing to throw veterans or Military folks under the bus, just so I can carry in a couple extra states.

It just wouldn't be right/

Why are you willing to throw college students and nurses and waitresses under the bus? How is that right?

The difference is its not us Texans that are throwing the visitors to other states under the bus.

No. Instead you're eagerly throwing Texans under the bus.

You endorsed denying the right to keep and bear arms to a nurse because she's a civilian nurse instead of a military nurse. The same for a civilian EMT or fire fighter.

To ask our young people to save the lives of other people every day, and then deny them the most effective tools to save their own lives, is so far out on the hypocrisy scale, its not even worth discussing. Just my thoughts.

[NAVY CHIEF]

I also don't recall when the age limit was reduced to 18 for active military....

Chas.

Actually, being a recruiter, I can tell you this: The allowable age {with parental consent (unless they are married, which makes them "emancipated")}for someone to enter the military is... get this... 17! This might even make this and other threads more "lively?"

Hooyah!

[lonewolf]

Personal opinion here--

If a person is of legal age to vote and thus have a say in the operation of the government, that person should be able to participate in all legal "vices" that are out there. Drinking, smoking tobacco, owning a gun, having a CHL, etc, etc, etc.... They should know that their actions have consequences, that there are ramifications to abuses. Unfortunately, for those that don't care, they break the law anyway.

Kids use guns in crimes, kids drive drunk, kids smoke.......and I'm not talking about 18 years old, either. I'm talking about younger kids. All the laws in the world don't prevent stupid, careless and irresponsible people of all ages from being stupid, careless, and irresponsible.

Set the bar at one height.

On being a recruiter, my experience sitting in that chair was many moons ago. I remember many times Mommy bringing little Johnny in so he could join the Navy (and leave her in peace.) During the initial interview, with Momma sitting close by, little Johnny had never done anything wrong in his life. When in the back room, taking the pre-ASVAB and me asking the questions again, they would cough up more stuff than you can believe. Momma didn't understand why little Johnny needed to wait a while before coming back in. If he was eligible at all. Her little angel.

[NAVY CHIEF]

On being a recruiter, my experience sitting in that chair was many moons ago. I remember many times Mommy bringing little Johnny in so he could join the Navy (and leave her in peace.) During the initial interview, with Momma sitting close by, little Johnny had never done anything wrong in his life. When in the back room, taking the pre-ASVAB and me asking the questions again, they would cough up more stuff than you can believe. Momma didn't understand why little Johnny needed to wait a while before coming back in. If he was eligible at all. Her little angel.

You ought to see it now! Not only do they "do" things, they DON'T do things - like graduate! they think High School is tough - wait until life hits 'em!

Hooyah!

[Liberty]

I am not willing to throw veterans or Military folks under the bus, just so I can carry in a couple extra states.

It just wouldn't be right/

Why are you willing to throw college students and nurses and waitresses under the bus? How is that right?

The difference is its not us Texans that are throwing the visitors to other states under the bus.

No. Instead you're eagerly throwing Texans under the bus.

You endorsed denying the right to keep and bear arms to a nurse because she's a civilian nurse instead of a military nurse. The same for a civilian EMT or fire fighter.

To ask our young people to save the lives of other people every day, and then deny them the most effective tools to save their own lives, is so far out on the hypocrisy scale, its not even worth discussing. Just my thoughts.

Actually yes! The military have proven a certain sacrifice and are trained in firearms. They have chosen to serve. The nurse can always stay home in Texas. It isn't us Texans that are banning carry in these renegade states. But the states themselves. Making bad laws to overcome another states bad laws isn't the answer. The States banninig Texans are the problem and are the ones that should to change the rules. Thare are
Sorry but those who don't serve just don't get the extra respect that those who do serve. Might not be fair, but then know one ever said life was fair. Those that have served understand. Those that stay home can never fully understand.
There are about 30 states that have been able find their way to allow us Texans to carry in their states. It would be close to treasonous to ban our service people to carry just so we can all carry in the rebellious states. Are we so unwilling to to sacrifice for those who are willing to sacrifice their all

[snorri]

If a person is of legal age to vote and thus have a say in the operation of the government, that person should be able to participate in all legal "vices" that are out there. Drinking, smoking tobacco, owning a gun, having a CHL, etc, etc, etc.... They should know that their actions have consequences, that there are ramifications to abuses.

If someone is old enough to drive a car on public roads, they're old enough to stand trial as an adult for vehicular homicide or driving the getaway car for a robbery. They're also plenty old enough to consent to recreational activities in the backseat of a car.

[aardwolf]

I hope DPS is doing enough checks on the under 21 military people getting this special treatment, to make sure they're not in gangs, haven't been counseled for behavior that would be considered crimes in the civilian world, etc.