Citizens on Patrol

[uvig3]

Because of increased crime, I decided to join the Citizens on Patrol program provided by the Houston Police Department. The function of the program is to organize neighborhood team efforts to drive around or walk around their neighborhood and report suspicious activity. There is a one hour training session provided by a Houston Police officer, and an applicaton to fill out. A background check is performed and a license is issued. Magnetic signs are provided to the neighborhood team to affix to cars that are used while patroling. The Citizen Patrol Group must submit a monthly report that details the neighborhood team's activities, and there is a minimum of 30 hours of patrolling required each month by the team. According to the manual, we are only allowed to report suspicious activity, not get involved in the least. We are considered citizen volunteers.

I was shocked to see in the official manual that it's unlawful to carry a conceled weapon, even though I have a valid CHL. There is no mention of this limitation on the Citizen Patrol website; http://www.houstontx.gov/police/vip/vip_citzpatrol.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This poses a dilemma for me because I walk my dog at least twice daily in the neighborhood. Now that I'm officially a licensed Citizen Patrol volunteer, it seems that I am no longer allowed to carry my concealed weapon anywhere in my neighborhood. If I should need to use my gun to protect myself, now that I have this official quasi status, would I be at risk of committing a misdemeanor for unlawful carry? Is this no-carry limitation legal?

[seamusTX]

Does the manual specifically state that it is "unlawful" for a CHL holder to carry while patrolling?

I don't see how it could be unlawful to carry in your own vehicle. No agency can create a criminal offense by policy. Probably they would just throw you out of the group if they found out you were carrying.

You have to think about what they are trying to do here. They don't want non-LEO citizens acting as cops -- and this has been a real problem from time to time with citizen patrols. They don't want the volunteers or an innocent party to get hurt if the volunteer intervenes, and they don't want the liability to fall on the police department.

Neighborhood Watch and other such groups have the same rule.

Personally, I would not want to identify myself with the police department, period. I think it might make me a target for the local thugs. I can't understand departments that put uniformed personnel on the streets without weapons or self-defense training.

- Jim

[joe817]

it seems that I am no longer allowed to carry my concealed weapon anywhere in my neighborhood. If I should need to use my gun to protect myself, now that I have this official quasi status, would I be at risk of committing a misdemeanor for unlawful carry? Is this no-carry limitation legal?

Even though I applaud your desire to do your part in keeping your neighborhood safe, I would have to resign my position there, because of the severe restrictions I would be required to operate under. (I know improper English, but who cares? I got the point across).

That's just what I would do under the circumstances. I'm NOT recommending you do. I could not in good conscience live with that restriction. Just my 2 cents worth.

[T3hK1w1]

Is it really illegal because you are a part of the group, or are they just trying to say that being a part of the group does not give you permission to carry without a CHL? If the former, I would personally resign-not being able to carry in my own neighborhood is, to me, absolutely unacceptable.

[Beiruty]

I think I you can easily verify by asking. No one can take away your CHL privileges. I believe, what they are saying when you do patrol under their program they do not want you to be armed. The reasoning is that you may think or believe that you are now like a police officer with only 1-hr training. You may draw your firearm to stop a crime and get into hurting an innocent person and PD would be civilly liable.
By law, CHL can use deadly force to stop a crime (e.g. attempted murder or robbery with a deadly weapon) against a third party.

In my town, you need to go through 13-weeks ( 4hr per week) training to get into Police Academy, Once you graduate, you can enroll in Citizen on Patrol, where you do 4hr shift in real police car!. That is cool for me. But, also, no CHL armed citizen is welcomed. If you are caught you get dismissed from the program.

I find it is very risky to be in patrol car and un-armed while reporting a gang bang assault on someone. You could be get caught in the cross fire unarmed.

[PUCKER]

Like seamus said - was it ambiguous wording or specifically mentioning CHL carry?

And based on what you posted you made no mention of their rules mentioning prohibiting open carry of, say, of a shotgun. Just throwing that out there.

[dicion]

Like seamus said - was it ambiguous wording or specifically mentioning CHL carry?

And based on what you posted you made no mention of their rules mentioning prohibiting open carry of, say, of a shotgun. Just throwing that out there.

It's perfectly legal to carry a shotgun (or even an EBR!), slung across your back in public, on public property

Now... 'legal' and 'Will not get the Cops called on you' are 2 different things..

[sss]

My neighborhood was looking into this as well. I signed up on the first list to indicate my interest, but changed my mind after the "no guns" rule was brought up in some of the official documentation we received.

My neighbors are more than welcome to walk around at night, looking for trouble with no protection other than the non-emergency dispatch number. Count me out.

[srothstein]

Before you condemn the no guns provision, consider the legal theories on it. While you are patrolling during the program, you are an employee of the police department. Yes, you are unpaid, but for liability purposes, you are an employee. There are several ways for an agency to become liable for your actions as an employee, but one of the big ones is a failure to train. if there is a reasonable possibility that you will become involved in a situation, the agency has a duty to train you for it. A failure to provide the training could make them liable for civil rights violations also (all use of force by employees of the government comes under civil rights - Fourth Amendment seizure - questions).

Since they do not want to take the time and money to train you properly, the ebst way to avoid the liability is to ban the potential action. If you are unarmed, you are significantly less likely to become involved in any incident, especially considering the stated instructions to just watch and call.

In a case like this, I would assume the ban would only apply while you were patrolling for them. This would be defined as having checked in with them, using their signs on the car, etc. I do not think (and IANAL) their rules banning carry would apply other than on duty. So, it would not stop you from being armed while walking your dog, for example.

Considering all of that, I appreciate citizens patrolling and helping the police. I understand the banning of the guns, even if I do not agree with it. And, I fully understand anyone not wanting to patrol unarmed also. It makes sense to me.

[HankB]

A few thoughts, in no particular order . . .

1. You need to determine whether the "no guns" rule is a matter of policy or a matter of law. Violating policy may get you removed from the program, violating law may get you prosecuted.

2. Vehicle carry doesn't require a CHL.

3. Having a CHL and completing "Citizens Police Academy" or a brief training sesson does not repeat not make you a cop, even if you're given a spiffy magnetic sign for your car.

4. If you are disarmed while participating in the program, you are NOT a watchful set of eyes helping law enforcement, you are the equivalent of a canary in a coal mine. (Think about it . . . )

[shootthesheet]

I would not take part in the official patrol. You can do the same thing, on your own and in your own time. Take a cell phone and your protection on your walks and when you are out-and-about the neighborhood. Pay attention to what is going on, which you should do anyway, and do not hesitate to report suspicious activity. I don't see any reason, other than a 24 hour uninterrupted watch which the police don't require anyway, for this program. It is a waste of money and dangerous. What they are trying to do, in my mind, is have people paying attention and willing to report problems. You want to be one of those kinds of people and I don't see any reason why you need their dangerous rules to do so. I understand the LEOs position but would insist any person harmed or killed on one of those patrols get money for medical bills and/or payments to their families for lost income. Why put a target on yourself and your family and friends. If it is your car you won't be very hard to find for a bad guy. I understand wanting to help but we are not LEOs and should not feel obligated to do their job for them.

I watch for trouble and report it if I think it is needed. I am not a LEO and don't care to do their job for them.

[uvig3]

Does the manual specifically state that it is "unlawful" for a CHL holder to carry while patrolling?
- Jim

Here is the exact language from the manual. Reading it carefully, it says that no weapon of any kind can be carried. Furthermore, a class A misdemeanor is threatened for violating the rule. I have a call in to the Houston Police Dept for clarification. No reply yet.

"7. Volunteers may not be in posession of any type of weapon, either on his or her person or in the patrolling vehicle. This rule applies to volunteers licensed to carry a handgun in the state of Texas as well.

Texas Penal Code, Chapter 46.01 (Definitions of Weapons). Examples of weapons are: club, explosive weapon, firearm, firearm silencer, handgun, knife, knuckles, or any other item that is designed to inflice injury upon a person(s). ***

Texas Penal Code, Chapter 46.02 (Unlawful Carrying Weapons). (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his person a handgun, illegal knife, or club. (b) Except as provided by Subsection (c), an offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor, (c) An offense under this section is a felony of the third degree if the offense is committed on any premises licensed or issued a permit by this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages. ***

*** Definitions are paraphrased and incomplete, see Texas Penal Code for detailed law."

At least there is no specific mention of carrying while patrolling on foot. However that may be intrepreted as a simple oversight by a prosecuter and I may still be charged if stopped while walking my dog.

[Keith B]

Are there times you are 'officially' on patrol and other times you are not? IANAL, but I would think that if you are acting in an official manner with the placards (signs) on your vehicle, or wearing a COP shirt and performing the patrolling function, then you would be bound by the rule. If you are just out walking your dog, going to the store, eating at a restaurant and are not performing an official function or on the clock as a COP, then you should not be bound by the guidelines.

[seamusTX]

In my opinion (IANAL, etc.), that policy was written by someone who did not understand the law or did not care to get it right.

PC 46.02 contains all the elements of the offense of unlawfully carrying a weapon, and acting as a police volunteer is not among them.

Furthermore, PC 46.02 does not apply to long guns, pepper spray, Tasers, and a range of other things that can be used as weapons.

You might want to ask one of the officers in a confidential, off-the-record situation, how the police department really understands that policy.

- Jim

[KD5NRH]

A background check is performed and a license is issued.

A license to do what, call the police? I'd say ditch the program and get a camera system. Whenever it catches anything, provide police a DVD.