Forcing the issue?

[Cowboyrob]

Anyone thought about demanding a hearing after 60 days of waiting? My read of the statute says that failure to issue or provide a reason for delay at 60 days is a denial and a denied applicant can demand a judicial review in jp court which must occur 30-60 days after a request

[The Annoyed Man]

Why bother? You'll likely get it in 70-75 days anyway. In any case, rather than treating it as a refusal, far better to simply call your state representative's office and ask him/her to look into it. That seems to work pretty well for a lot of people.

[nitrogen]

I wonder what would happen if enough people started doing it...

[Rollin2008]

LoL my Chl took 120 BUSINESS DAYS!!!!!! i guess i was denied twice LOL

[chuck_in_texas]

cowboyrob - - - - - - don't know whether you're right or wrong on that, I'm an old retired engineer and you need a lawyer. Perhaps Mr. Cotton can comment.

Mine took 120 days, with 3 retakes of my fingerprints. And it's depressing to wait.

But here's my opinion. You as an individual can't do much. There's no point in getting on the phone and yelling. They've got all the cards (er,,I mean paperwork)

But you DO have a state rep and and state senator. YOU elected these folks, and they are there to be your representatives. Once you go beyond a reasonable time (say 90 days) (or even right after 60 days, although I think that's unrealistic) contact both of them and state your case.

Do it by letter, unless your rep (and many do) has a website where you can email in issues. In my case, I hand delivered a letter to my reps office. Or find your rep's office, unless you're way out in the never-lands, and go down and talk to a staffer. there's always someone there to take your problem.

I can't guarantee it will work, although I beleive that's what got my case off the dime. But the DPS is going to at least give the rep the courtesy of listening. They may not be as courteous or responsive to you.

In any case, before you start hiring attorneys and filing suits, spend some time checking out this site. I think you'll find that guys and gals who got their plastic in 60 days are a small minority. Most waited much longer.

And, be thankful that you took the class when you did, because it will only get worse. the last 3 Sunday mornings I was at my pistol range, there were some mighty big classes of new applicants. The instructor is telling these new folks to expect 5 months. So the flood will only get worse. AT least you're ahead of the newer crowd that's coming up.

Just stay cool, my friend. You'll get it.

[Oldgringo]

Over a year ago, Mrs. Oldgringo had submitted her fourth set of fingerprints and appeared to be on extended hold. A couple of letters, e-mails and phone calls to our elected represenatatives, the Gov. and DPS department heads got her plastic delivered pronto. Pronto was 120 days after initial submission. I, on the other hand, who took the same class, made the same grade and had the same Sherrif's Dept. first fingerprinter got mine on the 60th day as promised. For awhile there, it seemed that DPS was discriminating against Sr. Grannies.

I guess the moral of this monologue is: "Who knows" ?

Good luck.

[Cowboyrob]

I have had enough mismanagement by DPS. My legislators have been ineffective at getting DPS to get it's act together. If they refuse to administer this program appropriately, I am going to do my best to make them look bad and force them to put some effort into my case. Sent electronically and by certified mail a demand for a hearing on the "denial" of my license. I am now in th 5th month of waiting. We'll see what my justice of the peace has to say.

[Mike1951]

I have had enough mismanagement by DPS. My legilators have been ineffective at getting DPS to get it's act together. If they refuse to administer this program appropriately, I am going to do my best to make them look bad and force them to put some effort into my case. Sent electronically and by certified mail a demand for a hearing on the "denial" of my license. I am now in th 5th month of waiting. We'll see what my justice of the peace has to say.

Have you read Charles Cotton's post where he is preparing to hit DPS with thousands of such cases?

While he won't ask individuals not to pursue this individually, he does caution that establishing case law in these individual cases may well do more harm than good.

[Mike1951]

Re: Talked to the office of the Chairman of the Licensing and
by Charles L. Cotton » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:13 pm

Some folks have indicated they are going to send letters to DPS asking for a hearing on their denial. Anyone whose application has been delayed 30 days or more can do this, but there are some pitfalls if you don't know how to proceed once the hearing has been scheduled in the J.P. court.

I'm not trying to discourage anyone, but I have been carefully planning a coordinated effort to have the maximum impact and hopefully generate some meaningful changes. My goal is not only to help individual clients/CHL's, but to force a change that will benefit everyone. If someone loses in J.P. court and then goes on to ultimately lose in the appellate courts, then some bad case law could be created that could be very difficult to overcome. This is not something that should be taken lightly, so please consider this if you are planning to do this without an attorney, or an attorney not completely familiar with the controlling code provisions and case law.

Chas.

[CrimsonSoul]

I am currently pushing the issue with DPS, I've contacted my senator 3 times on the issue as well as contacting DPS about it. My last effort to contact my senator via e-mail was forwarded to DPS with this canned response "At this time we are awaiting the completion of the background investigation. Unfortunately, we do not have an estimated time of completion Thank you for your continued patience." as a result of that I e-mailed this letter back to DPS... I wonder if they will like me after they read it, don't care though. It's pitiful I've been in the armed forces, I've been a correctional officer and I've never once had a ticket but yet it takes that long for a background check? bull! anyway, here is my reponse to the DPS e-mail.

" While I understand that my background investigation is not complete I would like to point out that according to GC 9411 .I 76 "The scope of the record check and the investigation are at the sole discretion of the department" With that in mind the following law also states that if the background check is not completed in 60 days, according to GC 5411.177 "1. Issue the license; 2. notify the applicant in writing that the application was denied...; 3. Notify the applicant in writing that the department is unable to make a determination regarding the issuance or denial of a license to the applicant within the 60-day period prescribed by this subsection and include in that notification... an estimation of the amount of time the department will need to make the determination." With that in mind informing me that you don't have an estimated time of completion is unacceptable.
Futhermore the Department of Public Saftey (DPS) did not notify me in writing that they could not issue my license in 60 day giving me a reason OR the time that it would take to make the determination which brings in subsection C of GC 5411.177 which states "Failure of the department to issue or deny a license for a period of more than 30 days after the department is required to act under Subsection (b) constitutes denial." which means that since I was not informed, issued, or denied a license 30 days after DPS was required to act that by law I have been denied a license.
With this in mind DPS recieved written notification on Jul 3rd via a certified return receipt letter of my request to have a hearing on the denial of my license as written in GC g411.180 which states that "the applicant or license holder may request a hearing on the denial, revocation, or suspension." With that in mind I would like a response as to either 1. That my license has been approved, or 2. when my hearing on the denial of my license is scheduled. Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

My Name Here"

it made me feel good about myself to send an angry letter, that was my first one, all my other ones have been polite.

edit: I think what made me mad about the whole thing is that instead of replying to my e-mail or calling me my state rep just forwarded my e-mail to DPS like pfft whatever

[Cowboyrob]

I have had enough mismanagement by DPS. My legilators have been ineffective at getting DPS to get it's act together. If they refuse to administer this program appropriately, I am going to do my best to make them look bad and force them to put some effort into my case. Sent electronically and by certified mail a demand for a hearing on the "denial" of my license. I am now in th 5th month of waiting. We'll see what my justice of the peace has to say.

Have you read Charles Cotton's post where he is preparing to hit DPS with thousands of such cases?

While he won't ask individuals not to pursue this individually, he does caution that establishing case law in these individual cases may well do more harm than good.

I thought I responded to this.

I did not see Mr. Cotton's post before sending my hearing demand; but, the initial hearing in JP court is an administrative hearing only and does not set precedent. DPS must show by a preponderance of the evidence that I am not qualified to be issued the license: something they can not do. There are no other issues to be considered.

I think it is very unlikely TDPS would appeal a loss from JP court.

[dicion]

I am very interested in following these 2 denial hearing requests.
I would definitely recommend taking a lawyer to the Hearing, to make sure that correct procedures are followed, etc.

Basically, all you should have to show the Justice is the black and white wording of the statutes. I'd have the applicable sections printed out, nicely ordered & labelled, applicable sections highlighted, and ready to display.

I might be doing the same, except for the fact that they had to request additional documentation from me, which therefore reset my 90-day timer since I did not provide a 'completed application' until I sent them the additional information

Please, keep us updated every step of the way.

[dicion]

Also, CrimsonSoul:

If you did not send your hearing request by postal mail, it does not meet the requirements as defined by law. They can ignore it.

If you are dead set to request a hearing, I recommend physically mailing them something to the effect of this:
http://www.dicion.net/chlletter.doc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My Actual recommendation, however, at this time, would to be to wait for Charles to start his campaign that he is gearing up for, and get in on that if you are able.

[CrimsonSoul]

I sent them an overnight certified return reciept sig required letter :)

[Cowboyrob]

Crimson,
please let me know when you receive some response. They must respond within a "reasonable" time and the hearing should ocurr within 30-60 days. I would say 10 days is reasonable given the other constraints.