Robbers Fatally Shoot Denny's Employee - New Mexico

[Keith B]

Great posts. And agree with the majority here that if you are a lone CHL in a crowded restaurant invaded by multiple bad guys, your best bet is to flee or become as "invisible" as possible until the nightmare ends.

One point I haven't seen brought up yet is whether in New Mexico at a Denny's you would even be allowed to have your gun on you in the first place. I'm starting to study up on New Mexico and Arizona CHL laws (planning trip through both in a few weeks) and I believe CHL carry is illegal in any place that sells any alchohol for on-premises consumption. I'm not sure as I wouldn't go to a Denny's have a beer, but don't many Denny's/IHOP type places have beer or even cheap wine on the menu?

I have never seen alcohol on the menu at a Dennys or IHOP.

[stevie_d_64]

Great posts. And agree with the majority here that if you are a lone CHL in a crowded restaurant invaded by multiple bad guys, your best bet is to flee or become as "invisible" as possible until the nightmare ends.

One point I haven't seen brought up yet is whether in New Mexico at a Denny's you would even be allowed to have your gun on you in the first place. I'm starting to study up on New Mexico and Arizona CHL laws (planning trip through both in a few weeks) and I believe CHL carry is illegal in any place that sells any alchohol for on-premises consumption. I'm not sure as I wouldn't go to a Denny's have a beer, but don't many Denny's/IHOP type places have beer or even cheap wine on the menu?

I have never seen alcohol on the menu at a Dennys or IHOP.

True...But the trips that folks make these days really are surprised when they find out that most states have this type of restriction, and its usually dubbed "restaurant carry", "good to go, or not?"

If my Dad calls me and tells me he's going on a trip, say to Yosemite or other state...I ask him his route and first determine his carry capability in those states he'll be transiting...Resciprocity is the first thing to figure out...Then car/vehicle carry...I alway look to see if there are hotel/motel restrictions where he might rest, then the restaurant issue with alcohol service is checked...Last on the list is the O.C. thing...I seriously doubt he'll ever do it, but it would be fun to see him try it...

Handgunlaws website, and unfortunately the Open Carry.org website are good databases for this info...Both are links available on this website...

[ELB]

Some contrary, perhaps uncomfortable, thoughts:

I wonder why everyone who thinks "better to be a good witness than a corpse" thinks he is going to be the witness, not the corpse...?

I wonder why everyone who thinks "better to be a good witness than a corpse" thinks he or she is not going to be a witness to his wife or her husband, and children becoming the corpses...?

At what point am I going to decide that this is a "mass killing" versus a "mass robbery," thereby justifying a more "active defense?" How many victims need to be shot? Is that number "OK" if it includes someone from my family?

I seem to recall --- Wasn't it was a mass shooting -- and watching her parents be murdered while her handgun was safely secured in her car -- that triggered some gal to get off her butt and run for legislature so there could be a concealed handgun law in Texas?

Sixty to 100 people... six, or maybe four, or maybe just two...badguys. Wonder what would happen if instead of everyone hiding under the table we just mobbed these guys. Someone might get killed! Oh. Someone did get killed anyway. Note: at this point all the BGs probably became eligible for murder charges. At least some BGs realize this. Would tend to lower the threshold for committing further murders, I would think. In for a penny in for pound sort of thing.

If I am more afraid of hitting what I am not aiming at than what I am aiming at when under stress, then why am I carrying a gun? Wouldn't all those bystanders be safer if I didn't have a gun at all? What am I going to do about it? Do I think watching gunmen threaten other people in a restaurant is more stressful than watching them threaten me directly on the street? or threaten my family? Will I shoot better then?

Do I think the risk of hitting a bystander and being sued is greater than being killed on the spot? Am I more afraid of lawyers than violent criminals? If so, again, why do I have a CHL and a gun?

Doesn't it seem odd that we hold people who act, maybe imperfectly, in opposition to criminal violence, to a higher standard than those don't act, and let criminal violence happen?

If the important thing is that I take care of me and mine first, and those who are not willing to take care of themselves need to suffer the consequences (an argument I've seen in other posts), then why would I sit back and wait for the BG to decide whether or not I may {live, die go about my business, lose my valuables, be terrorized} rather than actively opposing him, regardless of consequences to others?

It's pretty clear to me from studying many other violent encounters that the one who is acting, who takes initiative, fairs far better than raw numbers (us vs them) would indicate. Immediate, violent action disrupts the BG's plan, his mental process, for all of the BG's. And it disrupts the ones at the street thug end of the spectrum more than the ones at the terrorist-paramilitary-trained end. The BGs response on being shot at by the would-be victim seems not to be action, but confusion. And if the leader gets blasted -- who is probably the one waving the gun, making threats, giving orders -- there's a decent chance the followers will fold and run, or dither long enough to be shot. If I am not standing there dithering, that is.

The exact elements of any situation are going to dictate what I can do, and what I actually do, but as Abraham noted, things are not going to be lined up perfectly for me. I am going to act or not. If I act, I get a vote in what happens next. No action, no vote.

[ELB]

So now it's four...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=7891070" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Police on Sunday were searching for at least two more suspects they believe killed a teenage worker during a robbery at a packed Denny's and committed 10 more armed robberies in Albuquerque this past year.

Two suspects were arrested within minutes of the crime Saturday on suspicion of murder, kidnapping, robbery and child abuse because there were at least five children in the restaurant, Albuquerque Police Officer Nadine Hamby said.

Hamby said the men who were arrested are in their late 20s to early 30s and are from South America, but she did not know where specifically. She said police were working with U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement to verify the men's identities.

Hamby said at least four masked men with rifles and handguns rushed into the northwest Albuquerque Denny's around 9:30 a.m. Saturday and demanded money.

A teenage female employee was fatally shot during the robbery. Police have not yet identified her.

One restaurant employee told police a manager was forced to open the cash register and the robbers took an undetermined amount of cash.

Hamby said police believe the men committed 10 similar robberies in the Albuquerque area in the past year, but no one was shot in those incidents. She would not provide further details.

She said about 35 detectives, who were in the area as part of a special operation targeting robberies, responded to the restaurant and found two of the suspects quickly.

Hamby said police were trying to help the roughly 100 people who were in the restaurant at the time get any emotional or psychological help they may need.

"They've been through a traumatic experience," she said.

Witnesses described the scene inside the restaurant as chaotic, with people getting down on the floor when they heard a bang.

"Four masked men came in with guns," customer Brian Thompson told KRQE News in Albuquerque. "Two went toward the back. That's all we could see because we all hit the ground."

10 robberies prior to this one. And yet this time they caught two of them within minutes.

[Rex B]

I am wondering how many of the 60 or so diners in that placed were licensed to carry, and were carrying, and have been 2nd guessing themselves ever since.
What if there had been 12 CHL holders in there, all assuming they were the only armed good guy?

[WildBill]

I am wondering how many of the 60 or so diners in that placed were licensed to carry, and were carrying, and have been 2nd guessing themselves ever since. What if there had been 12 CHL holders in there, all assuming they were the only armed good guy?

Statistically, it's not very likely, but you never know. Your question reminds me of the time when I took an NRA advanced Personal Protection class. After our morning of range work, most of the class met for lunch at a local restaurant, similar to a Denny's. All together, we had about 14 CHLs who were armed and on high alert. All the while we were talking and eating we scanned the restaurant for BGs. It would have been a bad day for some fool if he decided to rob the place.

[Rex B]

Too bad a similar group had not been at Denny's, waiting for the range to open ;)

But in a scenario like that, we all assume we would be the only armed opposition out of the 60 to 100.
Chances are there would be another or two.
I think I would be looking for those two at the same time I'm watching the BGs.

[stevie_d_64]

Good points ELB...Very good points...

I believe you would effectively deal with a threat that focuses on you or a loved one in a situation like this...I think we all could...Technically, I believe I can deal with two right away...If the other goobers get wind of you, that might be it...Unless you have a backup covering you...

But being a passive witness is not exactly what I was implying either...But like I said, it is a tough call to make to decide to clear leather and go to work...

And you certainly cannot count on the situation to go well where no one gets hurt or killed either...

Think about this...If you AND I were having a meal there, the equation differs slightly in our favor at that point...

But I didn't want this so much to turn into an armchair quarterbacking discussion...

[stevie_d_64]

I am wondering how many of the 60 or so diners in that placed were licensed to carry, and were carrying, and have been 2nd guessing themselves ever since. What if there had been 12 CHL holders in there, all assuming they were the only armed good guy?

Statistically, it's not very likely, but you never know. Your question reminds me of the time when I took an NRA advanced Personal Protection class. After our morning of range work, most of the class met for lunch at a local restaurant, similar to a Denny's. All together, we had about 14 CHLs who were armed and on high alert. All the while we were talking and eating we scanned the restaurant for BGs. It would have been a bad day for some fool if he decided to rob the place.

That is almost like the little pizza place outside SRVA's and Compvest's Range up north of Houston...That is the safest place in Texas on the evenings after their IDPA matches...

Pizza's hot, drinks are cold, and the guns are warm and everyone is tuned, but relaxed...

I would almost pity the poor shlup who decided that place was easy pickings...

No need for witnesses there...Everyone would be complementing each oher on their stances, groupings and hardware...Before sitting back down for another bite or two, before the police showed up...

[KD5NRH]

IMO, two important things are being missed here:

Police said a group of masked men and possibly women stormed into the popular diner and began shooting.

They came in shooting, so you're not going to "avoid escalating the situation" by doing nothing. Heading for an exit draws attention to you, so better to face the threat and have a chance than to get shot in the back doing nothing useful.

Second, as soon as things started going wrong for them, they ran. I'd bet that effective return fire would have qualified as well, and the employee would still be alive.

[Purplehood]

IMO, two important things are being missed here:

Police said a group of masked men and possibly women stormed into the popular diner and began shooting.

They came in shooting, so you're not going to "avoid escalating the situation" by doing nothing. Heading for an exit draws attention to you, so better to face the threat and have a chance than to get shot in the back doing nothing useful.

Second, as soon as things started going wrong for them, they ran. I'd bet that effective return fire would have qualified as well, and the employee would still be alive.

It sounds like the employee shooting happened separately in the kitchen after the kid made a remark after one of the BG's slipped and fell.

[NutterButters]

Found an update this morning. looks like they still can't nail down the number of BGs - now they are saying at least 3.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529004,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Keith B]

I was talking to a friend yesterday and the subject of Albuquerque came up. His doctor has two sons who had been LEO's in ABQ. The both quit and joined a force in the DFW area because of how dangerous it is getting. Apparently 'takeover' robberies are starting to be very common (remember the 4 guys on video that pulled up to the guys house and he shot back? Albuquerque), not only at businesses, but at homes. There are several Hispanic/Latino gangs, including the infamous MS13, out there in large concentrations.

I think with the current economy and change in culture, we are going to see more criminal activity both from an organized and individual crime basis. These and other forms of domestic terrorism will also become more rampant. All the more reason to always be prepared to protect you and yours by whatever means you can do so.

[ClarkLZeuss]

This incident makes me consider again buying (and wearing) body armor on a regular basis.

[drstevens85]

Great posts. And agree with the majority here that if you are a lone CHL in a crowded restaurant invaded by multiple bad guys, your best bet is to flee or become as "invisible" as possible until the nightmare ends.

One point I haven't seen brought up yet is whether in New Mexico at a Denny's you would even be allowed to have your gun on you in the first place. I'm starting to study up on New Mexico and Arizona CHL laws (planning trip through both in a few weeks) and I believe CHL carry is illegal in any place that sells any alchohol for on-premises consumption. I'm not sure as I wouldn't go to a Denny's have a beer, but don't many Denny's/IHOP type places have beer or even cheap wine on the menu?

I have never seen alcohol on the menu at a Dennys or IHOP.

Being originally from New Mexico i can say for a fact that the Dennys in my home town serves beer and wine, but can only be purchased with a meal.