April 2009 Applications

[dicion]

It's not because I want it faster.
In fact, If I did this, it may even cause it to take longer, since If I did request a hearing at 91 days, it would more then likely stop my application, while they schedueled the hearing, which could be up to 60 days later.

It's the principle of holding the government accountable to it's own laws.
It's the principle of putting the department in front of a Justice, and having them be told to adhere to the law, as written.

I'd like to modify Burke's quote, if I may, to apply to this situation.

"All that is necessary for the unlawful delay of licensing is for good men to do nothing."

Seriously though, I know Charles has some aces up his sleeve on this issue right now, and I emailed him to be a part of it. Gonna see how he wants that to play out first.

My question to you, though, is this. You stated

I for one would probably not deal with it because I'm not losing sleep over not getting mine within 90 days.

Exactly when would it start bothering you?? 120 days? 150 Days? 200 Days? 1 Year? Or would you keep making excuses and just 'accept' that they can hold you in a non-issued, non-denied limbo for as long as they want. Our legislature, in it's wisdom, put these time limits into the law for this very reason, so that a department, could not of it's own desire, deny people for no reason by just holding them in administrative limbo. The law also states that If you do NOT File for a hearing within 30 days of your 'denial', you lose the right. So if you wait 120 days.. you have already accepted your denial, and have no right to a hearing.


I also refuse to believe that a single person cannot effect change. If you wish to believe that, you are more then welcome to.

[btm7687]

I did not see anywhere where I am making "excuses" for me not receiving mine or others not receiving their CHL. Like I said before, if I have not heard anything for 100-120 days, be it positive or negative, that is when I would start getting involved, but let it be known it would not be calling around to different offices in the county doing background checks. If I had issues I would discuss it with the main DPS office.

My initial post was directed toward those getting impatient waiting 60 days for their license and wanting to start calling around to each office in Harris county to see what the hold up is.

[dicion]

Ah, my apologies.

I still do disagree though. At the 60 day mark, you are supposed to have received something from DPS. Either an issue, a denial, or a note stating "an explanation of the reason for the
inability and an estimation of the amount of time the department will need to make the determination.". They are not following that requirement. So people wanting to call and find out what is going on at the 60 day mark, for me, is fully justified, since the department has not notified them of such, as required by law.

If the department started issuing such letters, then I would then agree with you. However, they are not.

[infoman]

I totally get the anxiety of waiting, but one way I like to look at things is this: If I'm at the local grocery store on a busy day and I end up waiting forever in line, even if I'm in a hurry, I never ever take it out on the cashiers, not even the head cashier.. it's the people at the very top who are the decision makers. All state angencies are on very tight budgets that are determined by congress. When you double the amount of applications, it literally takes an act of congress to allow them to hire more employees. I'm not making excuses for em, but remember who is actually holding the power and making the decisions. It's not the phone clerk, or the data entry person, etc.. Everyone ought to write their reps and let them know DPS needs more manpower and more budget money.(better systems, equipement, etc.) Otherwise, you're just going to continue to be the upset angry person in line at the grocery store, and even if you're ugly to the cashier, it's not doing a bit of good at all. If I ever had a problem with HEB, Walmart, Target, etc. I would contact their home offices or district managers, etc. I would never try to upset or pressure the clerk/cashier. anyways, that's my 2 cents worth..

[Dexdahex]

I hear what you all are saying but by the law Harris county is wrong. (more than 60 days)
Now it was said they are allowing a person to "carry a load gun" Which is true, but the question I ask myself, why the background check for buying the gun, is just a few minutes????
I could be wrong but the requirements are the same
"It's the Law was stated before as well" which is true once again!!!
I feel we have done what we are suppose to do ( paperwork, course, fee's, and our time ), now they should do what they are suppose to do.
All I'm saying is get it done

my .02

[WonderNine+P+]

BTM, they just don't get it. I don't understand how April applicants are getting restless when the March applicants are just now getting approved. I encourage everyone to view each and every one of my posts by clicking my screen name. DPS can only work so fast. I'm done preaching. How many posts to pound it into their heads? Take care everyone. I'm expecting my plastic in the box tomorrow. Just completed on Friday.

[Dexdahex]

That is actually Not how the system works.

By law, they are required to either Issue, Deny, or tell you that they need additional time, With a reason, and with an estimated completion date, by the 60th day after thei recieve your application.

By law, they are required to issue you a license if they cannot find a valid reason not to.

So, putting 1+1 together, By law, unless they can find a reason not to issue you a license within 60 days, they have to issue you one, or inform you why it is going to take more time, with an estimated date.

AFAIK, NOONE has gotten ANYTHING at the 60 day mark. Letter or anything. They are in violation of law. Plain and simple.
What does DPS do to citizens who are in violation of the law? Arrest time, Fine them, suspend them, etc.
Why should they not be held accountable in the same way?

Relevant statutes cited below:

GC 5411.177. ISSUANCE OR DENIAL OF UCENSE. (a) The
department shall issue a license to cany a concealed handgun to an
applicant if the applicant meets all the eligibility requirements and
submits all the application materials. The department may issue a
license to cany handguns only of the categories indicated on the appli-
cant's certificate of proficiency issued under Section 411.189. The
department shall administer the licensing procedures in good faith so
that any applicant who meets all the eligibility requirements and
submits all the application materials shall receive a license. The
department may not deny an application on the basis of a capricious or
arbitrary decision by the department.
(b) The department shall, not later than the 60th day after the date
of the receipt by the director's designee of the completed application
materials:
(1) issue the license;
(2) notify the applicant in writing that the application was denied:
(A) on the grounds that the applicant failed to qualify under the
criteria listed in Section 411.172;
(B) based on the affidavit of the director's designee submitted
to the department under Section 411.176(b); or
(C) based on the affidavit of the qualified handgun instructor
submitted to the department under Section 411.189(c); or
(3) notify the applicant in writing that the department is unable to
make a determination regarding the issuance or denial of a license to
the applicant within the 60-day period prescribed by this subsection
and include in that notification an explanation of the reason for the
inability and an estimation of the amount of time the department will
need to make the determination.
(c) Failure of the department to issue or deny a license for a period
of more than 30 days after the department is required to act under
Subsection (b) constitutes denial. (d) A license issued under this subchapter is effective from the date
of issuance.

Now, I know that you are thinking "Why would you want them to follow this to the letter? It says that if they don't do it, then it's a denial"
Yes, yes it is.. but an official denial is GOOD. It's better then the 'limbo' we're stuck in. Let me explain.

An Official denial allows you to request an official hearing as to why you were denied! A hearing has to, BY LAW, be schedueled within 30 days of the request, and be completed within 60.

So.. there's a hearing, and at the hearing, they are required to explain, to a Justice, why you were denied. And only Legally valid reasons for denial are acceptable. "We're backlogged" is not a legally valid reason.
A few of these hearings, and I'm pretty sure that Something will be done to expedite the process to keep them from happening.

In fact, I urge Everyone who has been waiting 90 days, to contact DPS and request a hearing, since:

(c) Failure of the department to issue or deny a license for a period
of more than 30 days after the department is required to act under
Subsection (b) constitutes denial.

According to law, if you have not heard anything from DPS at the 90 day mark, you have officially been 'denied' and can request a hearing.
I'd like to see how that plays out.
On day 91, I think will be calling DPS, and sending them a request, in writing, for a hearing on my denial.

Once you get a hearing:

The justice court shall determine if the denial, revocation, or
suspension is supported by a preponderanceof the evidence. Both the
applicant or license holder and the department may present evidence.
The court shall affirm the denial, revocation, or suspension if the court
determines that denial, revocation, or suspension is supported by a
preponderanceof the evidence. If the court determines that the denial,
revocation, or suspension is not supported by a preponderanceof the
evidence, the court shall order the department to immediately issue or
return the license to the applicant or license holder.

Immediately.

Case closed

[Dexdahex]

BTM, they just don't get it. I don't understand how April applicants are getting restless when the March applicants are just now getting approved. I encourage everyone to view each and every one of my posts by clicking my screen name. DPS can only work so fast. I'm done preaching. How many posts to pound it into their heads? Take care everyone. I'm expecting my plastic in the box tomorrow. Just completed on Friday.

Enjoy and please tells us about your Wally Walk

[WonderNine+P+]

P.S. DPS is officially allowed 180 days to complete your application. You guys need to read the manual more closely. Sorry.

[USA1]

personally, i was expecting to wait atleast 3 months ,so im not really upset at this point.
honestly , im surprised that the time has gone by as quick as it has. (80 somethin days)
in reality, im not really expecting anything for another month .

however, Dicion makes very valid points and has every right to feel fed up with the system .
there are people still waiting 130+ days with no real explanation as to why.

i have not called or e-mailed at this point because i beleive its too early to make a difference .
that may change when i reach an undetermined number of days.

[dicion]

BTM, they just don't get it. I don't understand how April applicants are getting restless when the March applicants are just now getting approved.

March applicants from counties OTHER then Harris.

There are still people in the January and February threads waiting on Harris County.

[dicion]

P.S. DPS is officially allowed 180 days to complete your application. You guys need to read the manual more closely. Sorry.

I have read the manual, cover to cover, about 30 times, thanks.

Yes they are allowed up to 180 days, but only if they send that letter at or before day 90, saying that it will be delayed, with a reason why, and an estimated time of completion.

They are not doing that. And In not doing that, by law, we are officially 'Denied' at 90 days.

[texas1234]

Okay I made calls to three State Senators. I didnt want to make a call until I realized what a disaster this has become for Harris County Applicants.

It is true that Harris County has one person doing background checks, it is true that they took away the person doing background checks for the Hurricane for 5 weeks, which created a back log, then on top of Barry getting elected which created a surge in applications. Bottomline is that if you are in Harris County your background request is sitting in a huge pile, for other counties you may run into a problem like this but not as severe as Harris.

So with that said. The only thing those of us can do at this moment is call your State Senator or State Representatives.

It's going to work like this. When the Reps get sick of their staff fielding CHL calls they will enact change, I do have sympathy for their staff who are normally very nice hard working people, so I dont suggest you call up and chew them out, but I do suggest you make the phone call, give them your information and ask them to look into it in a polite manner. Although politcians are the point people and easy to take out your frustration they too have to deal with disasters inside of government agency's that are not easy to fix. Remember the staff members have just as much power if not more than the politicians so use your charm.

Harris County has one field office and one person who has to receive the information, then they have to send it to Harris County another government agency nightmare to request a county background check, the databases are not shared which is why they have to pull the information from the county.

So by the time the DPS field office gets your request and it sits in a pile for two months, they then have to wait for Harris County to sift through their pile, to then get your background check done, to then get it back to Austin so they can approve it.

After finding this out there i no reason why this cant be done from a CHL office in Austin where they hire representatives that cover different geographical regions of texas to handle all county background checks from one office, so for example if a county gets overloaded with applications they know that three reps need to handle Harris where it may take only one rep to handle South Texas. Remember the databases are not shared so the field office doesnt have anymore information than the office in Austin. Why they send it to the field office is completely beyond me and one more reason why government run healthcare will be an utter disaster (sorry had to throw that in there).

I cant promise anything for us suckers who are currnently in this situation but it wasnt until day 70 and seeing others from January and February who still have not gotten their licenses that I realized what a severe problems this is.

For now I am of the opinion that calling your State Rep will make a difference. Maybe not for you or me but at some point you wont have Harris County applicants banging their heads into walls. Like this!

Call your State Reps, until the politicians start complaining, DPS will not do anything about it. Right now the guy at DPS is looking forward to being off at 4. Because its 4:00 o'clock somewhere. If you dont call your state rep and wait 120 days they will never know you had a problem.

[Kevinf2349]

What I really don't understand is that it took me less than 4 hours to get the OK to buy a firearm after FBI checks....so why do these checks take so long? Are they more detailed?

On another issue. I had occasion to call the DPS today to see if my recent naturalization would require me to send them (the DPS) anything extra. A charming lady on the other end asked if I had already sent a copy of my Green card, when I told her I had she said..."No problem then sir, you have already met the residency requirements".

For some reason this encourages me :) I handed them a reason to delay and they passed on the chance

[USA1]

For some reason this encourages me :) I handed them a reason to delay and they passed on the chance

she must be new...